Run-Down Forums

[Red Back]

Hi just a short question concerning marathon traing.
can any one tell me why when traing for a marathon the longest distance
which is trained is 32km/s isnt it wise to have run the full distance at least
once? cause if not wont you run in to problems? there is still 8ks to go.
I would like to run my first marathon properly and not run out of juice at 32 ks. after all if you run a 1/2 marathon the full distance is trained.
awaiting all replys. thanks.
Red Back

[Dan]

It's definitely true for shorter events that you want to be comfortable running at least the full distance in training. I believe the thinking with the marathon is: a) that would wear you out too much, and b) no matter how much/hard you train, there's no getting around the fatigue that will kick in around mile 22.

Input from the distance crew?

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

The reason most training programs only go up to 22 or 23 miles for there longest run is that at that point the body runs out of glycogen (easy to access energy stores) in the blood and muscle tissue. So anything after this point is more about will power than about physical training. I subscribe to the theory that you shouldn't experience anything in a race that you don't in training and for that reason I recommend doing long runs that go past the 22 mile barrier, although I don't think that it is a must to go the full 26.2 to run a good marathon.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Paul]

There is some thought that running the distance time-wise is important but not at race pace. So you would not be covering the full distance. Long runs in general are going to activate fat burning which is the key to sparing glycogen reserves. But I, too, am defering to the distance people on this one.
Paul

[Dan]

I think I might try applying Paul's theory to 400m training.

Dan

[Micah Ward]

I'll take a chance and bring up Galloway. His training philosophy for the marathon is to complete the full 26.2 miles in training. He asserts that the reason so many people "hit the wall" at 20 miles is because most training programs have their longest runs at just 20 miles. Especially programs for first timers.

Now, a lot of people don't like Galloway's walking break theory but the idea of doing the full distance in training makes sense to me.

[Paul]

Micah, I'm a Galloway fan. I think his books are a cut above the rest of the beginners texts. I like Salazar's book also. He has a lot of running with walk breaks stories that would benefit the beginning runner and also the 1st time marathoner.
Good luck tomorrow!!
Paul

[training2run]

I am an absolute and complete believer in the long run being 20 miles or 3 hours (which ever is *shorter*).

With all due respect, I think Galloway is full of - oops - in error. The main reason trained people "hit the wall" is poor pacing...starting out too fast and cratering at the end.

Leave the marathon distance for the marathon. The only time I ever hit the wall was in the first marthon I ever ran (and that was because I didn't no nutt'n about pacing).

Since then, I've run so many, I lost count years ago, yet I've never run more than 20 (for a marathon), and sometimes only 18. Running any more than that (especially for the non-elite), and you'll *spend* in training what you shold be saving for the race.

None of the people I train and race with ever hit the wall, and none run over 20 in training...they do, however, run *a lot* of 15 and 18 milers in the months before the race. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com

[Paul]

From what I've seen, pacing is the key. But that ties in with glycogen depletion. The more controlled your pace is at the beginning, the faster you get into fat burning mode, which is key to glycogen preservation. One thing Galloway stresses with his walk breaks strategy is that this prevents the runner from going out to fast. Galloway says that a one minute walk break per mile only adds 17-18 secs to each mile, and that time is easily made up toward the end of the race because of the reserves you have left. I think these ideas are good for the beginning runner. Mike, since you are well trained for very long distance running, you know how to govern yourself for these competitions compared to someone who is running their first marathon.
Paul

[training2run]

Pacing is easy. You base pacing on a previous marathon, or you determine your potential finish based a a flatout 5 miler or 10K.

You figure out your mile splits (under pace at the beginning, over pace at the end). You write those splits on your arm. You run.

If, towards the end of the race (mile 18 or twenty), you are forced to walk, you do so, but always for under a minute.

Walking early in an ultra-marthon makes sense, in a marathon it is silly - just not necessary unless you are untrained and trying to do it on a 30 mile per week base.

In actuality, G and I are in very slight agreement. *After the five mile mark,* I suggest that beginning marathoners take a few sips of liquid at every aid station and walk a few steps while doing so.

This works out (after five miles) to about 8 to 10 seconds walking a mile, and only slightly effects finish time. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com

[Hammer]

Mad Dog Mike- If you never hit the wall in a marathon how can you make judgements on your optimal marathon pace??? I understand the theory of using 8k or 10k races as markers but they are very different from the Marathon. Do you plan for late increases in speed (mile 15-20) to test yourself?

(This may be in the wrong place since most of the discussion was on begining marathoning)

[training2run]

I did hit the wall in my first marathon.

I base my potential on a combination of recent 5 mile and 10K performances, plus previous marathon performances.

This doesn't have to be that accurate for the starting (under) pace, because by 15 miles I'm going just as fast as I can, and still maintain...that I know from knowledge of my own body.

If I'm not going quite fast enough, I can make it up in the last few miles.

My 15 mile and 20 mile splits are usually the fastest, with the final 6.2 very close.

To check out the validity of this practice yourself, analyze the first 10 or 12 finishers of a marathon. See who runs even splits or negative splits as opposed to who runs fast and flashy at the start, but craters in the latter part of the race.

Clearly, a marathoner running an even pace, would have to know his capability (in that race) practically right on the nose. Using negative splits, you don't have to be that exacting at the start and early in the race, because you are speeding up throughout. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com