Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

Was reading an article earlier today on the IAAF web site on Mark Lewis Francis .. Nice article, but what struck me was the mention of his father being in Jamaica runing the family business .. Which brought to mind that here we have another Jamaican running for Britain/Canada as opposed to his "real" country of origin .. Then as I thought about it there has been a rash of "nationality" changes in recent years - Ottey now seeking dual citizenship, the Russians in Austrailia, Kipketer in Denmark, Obikwelu in Portugal, Alozie looking to switch, and many others ..

Is track and field becoming on on the verge of becomign a sport where nations begin "recruiting" to gain strength ?? Or is that already taking place ?? Is nationalism beocming a thing of the past ?? Or is that an ideal that disappeared long ago along with the idea of amateurism ??

I guess I ask these questions as I am curious when the sport will stop looking at the competitions of Nations (as is the basis for Olympic competition) and begin to look at individual competition (as in a true Worlds) ... Just some food for thought ...

[Dan]

The list of exported Jamaicans continues...

It certainly looks like national representations are becoming more and more blurred in athletics, but I doubt the IAAF will publicly acknowledge that until they have become completely meaningless, if even then.

Dan

[Conway]

Related question .. Given the rich history of track and field in Jamaica, does anyone know why so many of their athletes choose to compete for other countries ?? It is highly conceivable that Jamaica could hold the WR in both 4x1's if Jamaican sprinters competed for Jamaica .. !!!

[ This Message was edited by: Conway on 2002-01-11 13:33 ]

[Dan]

My understanding is it's largely an economic situation. Many of the formerly-Jamaican sprint stars seemed to have moved to their adopted countries very early on along with their families. Jamaica certainly doesn't have the wealthiest populace.

That brings up an interesting question. Can anyone think of any notable 2nd generation Jamaican "export" sprint stars aside from Inger Miller? Granted, it might be hard to dig up such info, but it seems it's the folks born in Jamaica and trained elsewhere that reach the highest heights. If that is indeed the case, it would make a strong argument for nurture over nature in explaining the wealth of great Jamaican sprint talent.

Dan

[Conway]

Off the top of my head I think Jerome Young is of Jamaican decent .. Although his results have been very mixed you can't sneeze at 44.09 .. There was also a high school sprinter a couple of seasons ago that ran 10.13 that is Jamaican but he ran on their 4x1 in Sydney and I believe plans on running for Jamaica .. So will have to think a bit about your hypothesis ..

[ This Message was edited by: Conway on 2002-01-15 18:41 ]

[Justin]

Hi All

Bear in mind that any Jamaican-rooted athlete in the current UK team is almost certain to have been born in the UK rather than be an immigrant. Most are the kids of Caribbean immigrants who came to the UK from the 1950s to the 1970s, primarily to take advantage of a post-war labour shortage - the reasons for emmigration from the Caribbean were (still are) absolutely economic. MLF is very much a Brit, while of course remaining proud of his cultural heritage.

Justin


[ This Message was edited by: Justin on 2002-02-18 16:59 ]

[Dan]

Hmm, I guess I'll need to work on a new theory...

Always good to have input from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Dan

[Conway]

MLF seems every bit the Brit which was why I was surprised ot hear of his heritage ... But i have always been amazed at the similarities in Britains sprinting heritage from the 80's forward as it has greatly mirrored that of the United States ... Just as the US produces few white sprinters, Britain seems to be in the same boat .. After producing Allen Wells (a favorite of mine) the well has seemingly gone dry .. Christie emerged and the change was in progress so to speak ..

What would you attribut that too .. The same has happened here in the US - after the likes of Morrow and Sime et al, somewhere around the emergence of Bob Hayes all has changed ..

[Justin]

Why are there no white sprinters? A reverse of the normal "why are black athletes better" question.

The answer is a mix of genetics and societal factors. Whether it is 50:50, 1:99 or 99:1 I have no idea. In general in such matters the further we get from 50:50 the more persuading I will need.

Some societal factors are easy to spot. There are few, if any, white sprinter role models to inspire the next generation, which of course becomes a vicious circle. Christie inspired the entire current crop of UK sprinters, almost all of them black, but Allan Wells did not do the same (but then he wasn't nearly as good as Christie, or as awesome to watch).

Another vicious circle is the constant asking of the question, which re-inforces a stereotype of black guys as quick, white guys slow. Subconsciously, with no suggestion of racism by coaches or parents, white kids get pushed away from sprints and black kids towards them. A key point to remember is that the most tiny advantage, genetic or societal, when applied to every level from grassroots up, has a major effect at the pinnacle (ie champ finals).

I have no idea if there are also genetic factors - it would be surprising if not, but nor is it certain. The disparity which has a group making up less than 5% of the UK population dominating sprinting can be explained by cultural and societal factors but it is so complex and touchy a subject that it needs more qualified and expert analysis than we are likely to be capable of here.

Justin

[ This Message was edited by: Justin on 2002-02-21 10:45 ]

[Conway]

Well Justin I asked the question that way as I also am not so sure about the superiority of any race in any discipline - sprinting, distance, weights, or otherwise ...

Like you I believe that individuals gravitate towards various events for various reasons .. And as a result begin to become proficient and then dominate whatever that discipline is ..

I tend to lean more heavily towards societal factors, although I too am sure there are some genetic variables that come into play .. I was just surprised that given the rich heritage of track and field in the UK and the suces that Wells had during the late 70's early 80's that there were no other white sprinters in the pipeline .. I would have thought that he would have been to Britain what Borzov and Mennea were to the USSR and Italy ... Same with Ewen Thomas ..

Same thing here .. Kevin Little has been doing it almost solo here for years .. There was a high schooler about 2 seasons ago (Casey Combest) who seemed to be the real deal, but he has virtually disappeared off the landscape ..

Don't want to over analyze it .. Was just an observation and I was curious ..

[Justin]

The truth is that Christie stands out among UK athletes as one who truly inspired a new generation, with the results you see now in Chambers, Gardener, Lewis-Francis, Malcolm and also Campbell, Golding, Baulch, Merry. Seb Coe and Steve Ovett did not inspire youngsters to want to be 800m runners, nor did Daley Thompson give rise to a new breed of Decathletes, nor did Allan Wells stimulate 10om running.

In most cases the higher profile of their event during the careers of those stars led to some depth - Peter Elliott, a few sprinters - but only Christie has really left a post-retirement legacy.

Nor did Mennea or Borzov bequeath significantly stronger sprint depth to the USSR or Italy.

So the question for me is not why these others failed to inspire the next generation, but why Christie has been so spectacularly successful in doing so.

It's not hard to see why. Christie is hugely charismatic, fanatically dedicated, physically awesome and, above all, he was a single-minded winner. He looked great, he acted great, he took no crap from anyone. The UK is not good at producing the sort of win-at-all-costs mentality that true greats need. Christie ruffled feathers in the establishment - witness the criticism levelled at him (boorish, arrogant, self-obsessed) by Seb Coe (who went on to be a Conservative politician - the very epitome of establishment). Since retirement Christie has also shown himself to be a gifted coach and mentor, putting back into the sport in a way that none of the other British greats - Coe, Thompson, Wells, any of them - have done.

Justin

[Conway]

What you say is very true .. Looking at the States here I would put Christie on par with say Bob Hayes in that Hayes I think inspired many other sprinters that followed ...

But I was very impressed with Christie throughout his career for the very reasons that you stated .. PErsonally I held him in higher regard than I did Carl Lewis - because he carried himself in a much better manner and seemed to walk a higher path ..

And Christie has been quite impressive on the coaching / development end .. So I would take your view of looking at why he has been successful and the others have not and say that would be a fair assessment of why no more white spinters in the UK ..

Looking at the same set of parameters in the US I would say perhaps the lack of any high profile white sprinters might be the same reason for lack of development ... Of course then the next question becomes one of how ot approach it ..

[Dan]

The thing I always find interesting is that the blacks as sprinters stereotype seems to hold so true at high levels but not always lower down. For example, I work with NCAA DIII sprinters in an area not exactly known for sprints or high black populations (although probably as high or higher than the UK), and I doubt there's any measurable difference here in the performance of blacks and whites, for the most part. I have a hunch that it's a bit of a catch-22. Precisely because the area does not have a sprint rich tradition, there is less expectation on individual sprinters for how they should perform and what stereotypes they should assign themselves to. As such, people basically just run and there's no real separation other than by ability.

Dan

[Micah Ward]

Hey guys, just some food for thought on the genetic v. societal debate. I had a coaching swimming class in college (PE major) and the swimming coach was talking about the lack of black swimmers in top level competition. He said that the elite black athlete typically has less body fat than the elite white athlete. Since fat floats better than muscle the elite black swimmer will have to spend extra energy staying afloat as well as moving forward. The amount of energy is very small but it could be the difference on a world class level of finishing 1st or in the back of the pack. Is this true? I don't know. I do know though that it can be a touchy subject because a college president mentioned that same idea in a public forum and was branded a racist by some people who took offense. So much for academic inquiry.

[Conway]

I take no offense Micah and I don't float .. Never have .. And yes it is a matter of body fat .. However if I had chosen to swim I think I could have worked around that .. Used to do short sprints in the pool with frineds and hold my own .. Point being is that I do believ that there are differences in people - all people .. And everyone has something they have to work on and over come no matter what they do .. As a sprinter I always had to work on my reflexes .. I had a technically solid start, but didn't react as quickly to the gun as most others .. I knew sprinters with extremely good to great reactions to the gun but couldn't hold their speed to the finish ..

There are differences in people for varying reasons .. Some genetic (having nothing to do with race) .. Some genetic (having to do with race) .. Some sociological ... Some psychological .. Everyone is different .. I tend to agree with what Justin stated earlier in that I think the genetic are the more minor of the differences .. That there are many more "external" differences that more strongly affect how individuals "ultimately" perform .. For example I will state that Carl Lewis was not the best sprinter of his generation - physically / genetically .. However he became one of the greatest sprinters of his generation .. Why ?? Many more reasons than simply the physical ... Choice of coach .. Follow through with coach .. Single mindedness .. Resources .. Being surrounded with talent to work out with .. Injuries to key opponents at key times .. Affiliations during his career .. And on and on .. An even better example would be Mike Marsh .. Mike wasn't even the best sprinter at his school in high school .. A 20.80 high school sprinter he won the California State Championships at that distance because his better known team mate (10.24/20.63/45.09 high school sprinter Henry Thomas)had an apendectomy before the state meet .. Mike went on to play second fiddle to Henry, Danny Everett AND Kevin Young while at UCLA yet Mike went on to a much more lengthy and distinguished career than all of them running 19.73 (9.93 in the 100) and gaining an Olympic gold in the 200 .. Again many different factors coming in to play ..

Making it a race thing is a cop out in my opinion .. As Dan stated above no matter where one is all of the events get filled with competitors - whether you are in the US or China .. All lanes and events get filled .. Japan has a 10.00 sprinter as does Austrailia .. North America, South America, the Cribbean, Europe have all developed sub 10's .. And if you really want to look at it you can make a case for the fastest sprinters coming from the "richest" nations of the world !!!

But that is just one man's opinon and I guess until I am published it doesn't mean too much ..