Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

Well, it is becoming increasingly apparent that certain levels of achievement are almost impossible without drug use ... I'm almost ready to say that only the truly elite can run below the following levels without;

10.10
20.20
44.80

11.15
22.50
50.00

Just my gut ... And despite the talk out there, I think the last "clean" set of sprinters was in the 60's/70's ... I think usage may have started somewhere during that time frame, but I think it was initially relegated to Europe as they were looking for a way to catch up (cold war and all) ... There was really no inducement for those who were already elite to do anything different - all you were running for then was glory ...

This rash of sub 10 running and all is as much a chemical race (who can get the best protocol) as it is a physical one ... I'm not going to stop watching the sport, I just understand where the performances are based and leave it at that ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Dan]

I'd be surprised if even the 70's had more than a spattering of clean elites. Too much awareness of drugs in the various inner circles back then. Seems it began building in the 50's and exploded in the 60's and has been full throttle ever since...

Those theoretical cutoffs put even the top collegiates into questionable territory.

Dan
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[Conway]

I'm going to disagree and I'll tell you why ... Yes there was a whole lot of discussion going on about anabolics ... But it was primarily on the need to increase bulk and strength ... So while I have no doubt that the shot putters, discuss throwers were seriously getting involved at that point why would sprinters ???

the top sprinters in the world were almost exclusively the property of collegiate programs ... There were no true club teams at that point ... Everyone was out doing their own thing basically ... There was no concerted effort at consolidating speed / sprinters ... Why would there be ??? Especially here in the US ... As long as you had a guy that could run in the 9.3 (for yds) range he had a shot at Olympic glory ...

Where I see the change acoming is with the Eastern Bloc who was looking for a way to compete against the Americans ... The "slow white guys" were looking for a way to compete ... And the Russians found a way with Borzov ... But even then they were not touting their work with anabolics - it was all about how technically superior their trianing was ... And while you had Borzov (and Mennea) success was so limited so as not to really provide any sort of protocol for sprinting development ....

And if you look at the numbers sprint times remained pretty stagnant throughout the 60's and 70's (10.0 to 9.9) with only a few hitting that magic 9.9 mark even with hand timing ...

I truly think that Charlie Francis was on the cusp of the change/explosion ... Why ??? Because Charlie had the first group of non black athletes looking for an advantage over the Americans ... So he searched out the top European programs to see how it was they were getting better ... The result was the Canadian explosion ... Followed by the big bust ... Followed by the world wide explosion in times ...

I think the Americans (lead by SMTC) got involved in the drug escalation because of Charlie to some degree ... But I also suspect that the American coach that had already begun talking to the German coaches was Tellez (due to both the incredible increases by his athletes and their timing) ...

So I am going to put the "real use" of PED's in the sprint world at approximately 1980 (as a convenient point) ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Dan]

That's a pretty sound argument, but I think back to the talk of the Montreal Olympics and how "out there" the drug use was with the Soviets, or going back to Charlie's complainers = cheaters comment and how much outcry there was in the swimming ranks (similarly a group that you wouldn't expect to be on the cusp of doping) over the East Germans, which would imply people were plenty aware and using at the time.

It also seems to me that the real explosion came 5+ years after Charlie's group came together, which could imply that it was advancements in competition and doping (and how they interrelate) that drove things forward as much as anything.

Dan
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[Conway]

[Dan]

I was referring to Francis' comment that the irony of the situation is the people complaining have to be doping to be good enough to be in a position to be heard. If we assume that theory held true early in his career, then doping was prevalent outside the Eastern Bloc in the mid-70's at least.

Dan
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[Micah Ward]

Did you hear about Eddie Heyullebeck (sp) being fired as a high school coach after testing positive for EPO? If you aren't familiar with him, he has been a world class marathoner and was the 2004 New Mexico high school coach of the year.
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[Dan]

No, I didn't hear about that. When did it happen? He's sort of a local running legend, having turned in an obscene Hood 2 Coast relay leg a few years ago, running the 1st 5 mile leg down from Mt. Hood at a 4:01 clip, I believe, hitting the first mile in around 3:40.

Dan
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[Micah Ward]

It happened last week. There is an article on the Coolrunning website about it.
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[AM_Runner]

http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/sp_prep_sports/article/0,2564,ALBQ_19875_3464943,00.html

There you go Dan
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The long run is what puts the tiger in the cat.