Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

I can hold on Dan ... Had a long day today and out of the office all day long so no access to my computer (well did have the laptop) .. Glad to see discussion going on ..

On the list of tantalizing times would have to be Bob Hayes prelim from Tokyo .. 9.91 with 5mps wind BUT ON DIRT .. Chopped up slippery DIRT !!! I rate it as one of the greatest hundreds ever .. And believe Bob to be in the same class as Greene and Johnson .. I've always wondered what he would have done on tartan or MONDO and was more than 21 or 22 years old !!!!!

Sanford was definitely one of a kind .. Quarter miler who came down to the sprints and mopst definitely woudl have got the record in the 100 had he stayed just a little longer in the sport .. And had the same kindof potential in the 200 ... And if anyone wants to listen I will tell you about his senior year state meet in high school

[Dan]

Justin's Junior lists are now posted in the guest articles section.

I'll be back in a bit to catch up on other stuff.

Dan

[Dan]

Here you go, something new to play with:

http://run-down.com/statistics/mens_100m_top10.php



Dan

[pj]

[Justin]

Excellent, thank you. I'd missed the 10.38.

I'll include him when I update the list at some point.

Justin

PS I only keep women's times to 10.99 so couldn't do a long top 10 list.

[Dan]

Justin, will you be planning an update at the end of the summer?

Dan

[jeffh]

While on the subject of ultimate sprinting speed,I have to mention the old-time professional athlete Richard Perry Williams.

In the book "The Super Athletes"published in the 1960's by David Willoughby,between 1904-1910 Williams ran 100 yards in 9 flat(on three separate occasions) and 100 meters in 9 4/5 sec.

Willoughby states,"if rated according to the normal trend of the 100 yard sprint record with the date of performance, it would seem that William's time in 1906 of 9 seconds flat was equilalent to a time in 1965 of only 8.55 seconds.Since no present-day sprinter has remotely approached that figure,it would appear R.P. Williams was indeed the fastest sprinter of all-time.He also stated the AAU has declined to give any consideration to William's records simply because he was a professional.

The guys today are really professionals.If Bob Hayes could have made a living with track and field and competed in in his prime with all the modern day advantages,who knows what the 100 M record would be.

One has to admit Maurice Greene has alot of advantages.He is the best of present day but if he lived in the 1960s could he beat Hayes/Hines ?It something to consider.

[Dan]

That's an interesting tidbit. Do you know if Willoughby factored in auto-timing (an extra quarter second)? How much was Williams winning races by?

Dan

[Conway]

Sorry but I am not familiar with R.P. Williams ... What was he a professional at ??? Given that his marks were not done in any track competition apparently ... And given that his marks were done with hand timing that in that particular time on timed to 5ths of a second, I would not put his marks even near accruacy wiht traditional hand times marks (to 10ths) let alone compare them to auto timed marks ... Unless of course there is suitable information to convince me otherwise ...

As for todays professionals having an advantage .... That I would have to agree with ... Much ahs changed for the better for todays sprinters ... Everything from track surfaces, to shoes, to nutrition, etc ... I would definitely put Bob Hayes against any sprinter ... Not so sure about Hines ... HE was avery good, but not quite in the same class as Hayes, Ben Johnson, Mo Greene, or even Tim Montgomery ... These guys are fast and consistent ... Jim was definitely a competitor but Mexico City was a unique situation and his career cannot be measured by that race alone ...

Conway

[jeffh]

That's an interesting tidbit. Do you know if Willoughby factored in auto-timing (an extra quarter second)? How much was Williams winning races by?


No,he didn't factor the quarter second.But remember,Bob Hayes's 9.1 100 yard record,Jim Hines 9.1,Houston Mctear 9.0 100Y,and Ivory Crockett 9.0
100Y records were also hand timed.The fact Williams did it 3 times and all the above did it once would give Williams as much or more creability than
the other hand times.I've seen Williams times quoted before and I even have a 1910 track and field card of Williams.I have cards of all the great sprinters past and present.





Sorry but I am not familiar with R.P. Williams ... What was he a professional at ??? Given that his marks were not done in any track competition apparently ... And given that his marks were done with hand timing that in that particular time on timed to 5ths of a second, I would not put his marks even near accruacy wiht traditional hand times marks (to 10ths) let alone compare them to auto timed marks ... Unless of course there is suitable information to convince me otherwise ...

As for todays professionals having an advantage .... That I would have to agree with ... Much ahs changed for the better for todays sprinters ... Everything from track surfaces, to shoes, to nutrition, etc ... I would definitely put Bob Hayes against any sprinter ... Not so sure about Hines ... HE was avery good, but not quite in the same class as Hayes, Ben Johnson, Mo Greene, or even Tim Montgomery ... These guys are fast and consistent ... Jim was definitely a competitor but Mexico City was a unique situation and his career cannot be measured by that race alone ...

Conway


He was a Track coach which made him a pro.The times were with "five absolutely perfect watches."

In the book,Willoughby compares Williams stated times to Hayes times(the premier sprinter at the time of the book).Williams times in the 50 and 60 yards were comparable to Hayes.With this in mind it makes the 9 flat more believable.The 9.0 100Y translates into 9.87 100M which is 9 4/5.The times all add up into being possible.Also the 5ths could be to Williams disatvantage,the 9 4/5 could be 9 .7,9.8 or 9.9.

Jim Hineswas a great sprinter.He ran 9.1 100Y the same as Hayes.His sub 10 100M wasn't broken for over a decade.His coach ,Bobby Morrow said Hines hated training and left him waiting at the track more than once.Some experts think Hines could have been the greatest with more hard work.Hines also left track and field before this prime to play for the Miami Dolphins.I would love to see what some these sprinters could have done if they would have put their total time and energy into sprinting and not retired before their primes.(like Greene)

Bob Hayes,I read,never ran on a synthetic track or at altitude.His last leg of the 4 x 100 in the 1964 Olympics could be considered the greatest sprint of all-time.

[Conway]

Interesting information ... But still not enough to convince me of his abilities ...

First off watches timing to 5ths are much different than watches timign to 10ths ... So very difficult to compare even if the watchs all timed him perfectly ... timing implements of that day were very substandard and not nearly as calibrated ... So 9 and 4/5ths could just as easily been more like 10.0/10.1 as it could have been 9.7/9.8/9.9 as you stated ... Other items such as levelness of teh track, wind conditions and other athletes and times in the race are also missing .... And of course we are talking about non-ratification at any level .... That and the fact that no other experts I have ocme across have ever mentioned him leads me to believe it more a function of lore than competitive results ...

As for Hines, I grew up watching Hines ... He was hard pressed against the likes of Charlie Green, Mel Pender, Jim Greene, Lennox Miller, Harry Jerome and other contemporaries ... He was definitely among the best, but no where near dominating ... True his 9.95 was the WR for years ... But it benefited greatly from altitude as history has shown ... It also benefited from the fact that all wather surfaces were not standard for most meets until the late 70's early 80's (when the reocrd was finally broken) and the fact that auto timing was not standard until after 1976 ... The time of 9.9 itself was equalled by several individuals and the 9.0 was intrinsically slightlly superior ...

Of the three we are discussing Hayes was definitely the real deal ... He was actually timed at faster than WR time on more than one occasion, but the fact that he was at a Black college in the early 60's negated them being turned in as the school did want the repurcusions ... And in his ratified run I believe the clocks read as low as 8.9 ...

Hard to speculate on what he would do today ... But sub 9.80 I do not htink would be out of the question ...

Conway

[Paul]

I had no idea that Bobby Morrow was Jim Hines' coach. Is Morrow still in the sport today??
Jim Hines was trading wins with Charlie Green in 1967, but in 1968 really rose above the rest of the crowd, in my opinion.

[Conway]

[jeffh]

[quote="Conway"]

[jeffh]

R.P. Williams was in more than one book;

In Roberto L. Quercetani's very comprehensive book "Athletics: A History
of Modern Track and Field Athletics (1860-2000)," p. 43, he writes:

"In America wide publicity was given to some incredible times credited
to a 'pro' by the name of R.P. Williams, who between 1904 and 1906
collected four 9 1/5 marks over 100 yards, and even a 9 flat, apparently
recorde by three timers at Winthrop, MA., in 1906. Williams was also
credited with 47 2/5 in the quarter-mile on a course with four curves,
hence over two laps! If there was a 'trick' of some sort ... we
obviously cannot say what it was, but these exploits certainly sound
somewhat 'fishy.'"


The old 5th watches might not be as accurate as watches of today but
world records still counted with them.If Williams could run times like those stated he was so far ahead of his era its almost unbelievable.I not saying take all this as gospel but its interesting.

Bob Hayes stated in his book (in 1990 i think) he could run 100M in 9.5
with all the benefits of today.Of course, thats just his opinion.[/quote]