Run-Down Forums

[CHSMile]

a non-Kenyan DID win

[Dan]

Yes and no. Japan, Korea, and China seem to do pretty well at marathoning, so I can't say I'm surprised by the performance. DeHaven may have run well, but take a look at the lists at the end of the year and see where his name is relative to the top times...

Dan

[CHSMile]

Can anyone post links to websites that have articles online about the Kenyan dominance in distance running? I need some good refrences for a research project. Thanks for the help.

[Dan]

Well, here's one, right here on Run-Down.

Dan

[CHSMile]

Thanks a lot Dan!

[Guest]

I can't believe anyone thinks Americans just aren't willing to train as hard. Without making any direct accusations, you've got to consider the EPO rumours. The argument goes something like this: Gifted runners, talented people, are not restricted to one part of the world. They are born at random in every culture in every part of the world. To think that suddenly one country could produce all the most talented people is ludicrous. If the rumours are true, then of course they train harder than anyone else. EPO is a drug that does not just make you a better runner by itself. All it does is allow your body to recover very rapidly. This enables you to do workouts you normally couldn't, and thus improve to levels you couldn't otherwise reach. So, if two runners of equal ability run together, and one is on epo, he will be able to withstand harder workouts over time. The other will be able to keep up for a few workouts, and then his body will break down. That could be why all these runners that go over there to train are so shocked at the work, resolve to do it, and then cannot or get injured. They didn't take the epo! The Tour de France scandal would be nothing to what may occur in Track. The average life span of a tour de France bicyclist is something like 48 years...

[Anonymously Posted by: 'Donk']

[Dan]

[Guest]

I don't assume the kenyans are on epo. I don't assume the americans and everyone else are not. I'm just saying these rumours should be considered. Until a reliable test for epo is developed, no one will know what anyone is doing on that score.

[Anonymously Posted by: 'Donk']

[Dan]

Well, if you aren't assuming anything about drug use among different groups, then the only reasonable conclusion is that all the groups are doing roughly the same thing drug-wise. In which case, that refutes your point that top talent must be widely dispersed. After all, it obviously isn't, so if you cannot explain the discrepancy with drugs (which you're not assuming), then what else...?

Dan

[Guest]

I'm just saying it's something to be considered, especially before a youngster goes out, gets the kenyan training program and tries to force himself to achieve things he may not be giving himself a fair chance of achieving. The injury vs. potential result gamble you talk about seems a reckless suggestion (a young impressionable kid might stumble upon this). (S)He could be trading away a life time of enjoyable, competitive running...

[Anonymously Posted by: 'Donk']

[Dan]

And what I'm saying is that unless you have some reason to believe that the Kenyan youth who are achieving results that beat almost all elite Americans are doing so through drugs, then by telling people to not copy their approach, you're realistically telling them to be happy never having a chance to make it to the top. Once the dream is gone, so are most of the people chasing it...

Dan

[Guest]

Many in the running community believe it; I don't follow the issue that closely, so you'll have to research it more for examples of who got caught when, how european agents help them avoid detection, etc. Many argue that americans don't do it, because they know the long term health effects mean an early death, and because they have a lot more to lose (much better standard of living here) they don't do it. Supposedly, American Lance Armstrong went from 2nd tier to #1 in the bicycle world not because he got better, but because all the epo-ers had to drop out. A similar thing could happen in running. If it were just a matter of running harder, americans would have done it by now. Perhaps they feel that they are being cheated against, the best instead choose not to participate.

[Anonymously Posted by: 'Donk']

[Dan]

So, given what you have just said (none of which is exactly ground breaking news), do you or do you not believe that the Kenyans are cheating with drugs? And if you do, please explain how the youth are running at such a high level when it's inconceivable that a rural third-world country would have a structured drug program. Maybe you'll actually answer this question on the third try...

I certainly don't claim all international athletes are clean, but I think it's very naive to view the Americans as being any cleaner. Look at the SI findings from a few years back (from a USATF questionairre, I believe) that a very high percentage of athletes said they would take drugs that they knew would kill thing in something like 5 years if it guaranteed them a Olympic gold medal. And you're going to try telling us that US athletes don't do drugs because of a conscience and known health risks???

Dan

[Guest]

Inconceivable? If you really want to deal in what if scenarios...What if a country offered to hire or were approached by an international coach who was willing to handle drug procurement, etc in exchange for a jet set life and a percentage of all his athlete's international winnings for life? If the state also takes a cut, they could pay the minimal drug costs, enjoy the national glory, and keep the remainder for themselves.

This completely destroys your argument that a rural "third world" country cannot afford to do it. There would be no up front costs.

Epo is already being replaced by a new drug, naft or something similar sounding, to better elude detection.

[Anonymously Posted by: 'Donk']

[Dan]

I didn't say they can't afford to do it (although even that is debatable, considering the KAA isn't keen on sending the max number of qualified athletes to major championships). Infrastructure implies organization more than dollars. How would you organize a rural doping program for youngsters?

Dan