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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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 Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: | Wow, now those are some surprising numbers. Those 2nd leg top splits (men, women, and MJ's best) are basically world-class open 100m times! I actually would have expected the 1st leg bests to be better...
10.10 on the 2nd turn is nothing to laugh at, either.
Did Tyree Washington show up in any of the fast 1st/2nd leg numbers?
Dan |
In order to get the low 21 splits on the first leg you have ot go that fast down the stretch ... The key to the first 200 in a quarter is realaxed speed ... Taking advantage of your build up in the first 100 meters to get maximum speed down the stretch !!! Go out in 11.0 and come back in 11.00 and it would be very hard to break 45 !!! Let alone begin to talk about 43s .... From the 200 point forward is speed maintenance and strength ... 
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Good point. Sub-11 average with the start and fading home stretch doesn't leave much to work with in the +10 category in between for a sub-44 overall.
Dan
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Justin
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Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:44 am Post subject: |
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The 100m splits discussion showed that top speed hasn't improved as the WR has - 12m/s (0.83 split) is as quick as B.Johnson, lewis, Bailey, Greene and Montgomery have gone - but the breakthrough has been the astonishing speed maintenance from 70m-100m. Mo hardly slows at all. Even Lewis only seemed to be going away because he was slowing less.
MJ showed this was also the future of 400m - even pace. We still see world level 400m runners blasting off and then holding on (read: treading water) down the home stretch. Yet the greats - Smith, Reynolds, Watts - go out steady and finish with near equal 200m splits.
800m is the same. Borzakovskiy is, in my view, the man most likely to run 1:40. His apparently superb finish is in fact just even pace - he has run several races in negative splits, ie 2nd lap faster than first. That last 100m is the same speed as he ran from 300m-400m. He's one of my favourite athletes (though I don't get the 400m experiment, unless he has a long-term master plan that includes increasing his speed; Seb Coe could run 46.low for 400m).
Going up in distance yet again, the great distance runners (Radcliffe, Geb) also run negative splits, from 10k up to Marathon. This is the breakthrough; their fastest splits (laps, miles) are no quicker than their predecessors, they just string together lap/mile after lap/mile at nearly the same pace.
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I agree completely ... Athletes have learned to better distribute their energy ... John Smith became a fairly consistent 44sec q-miler back in the 70s by putting together successive 22's ... I'm sure that that is part of his philosophy in training his athletes ... I know that "spreadign the speed out" was a big part of the philosophy of Tom Tellez as well ... Jim Bush tauight it to Quincy Watts and was trying to teach it to Tyree Washington before his injury ... This is where things are heading in order to drop records even further ...
I like Borzo as well but I am not sure that Kipketer is done yet ... I think he may get to 1:40 first ... I do believe that once 1:40 is achieved we will see the event change and times begin to drop, similar to the 5K & 10K in the mid 90s ...
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | though I don't get the 400m experiment, unless he has a long-term master plan that includes increasing his speed |
For even-paced running to work at that level (read 1:40-ish), the athlete has to have a tremendous amount of speed in order to be comfortably off the pace enough to be able to maintain it. I'm still far from convinced that even-pacing is the best approach to the 800/1500, but I at least do agree with that one portion of Borzo's "plan." There's no reason why the best energy distribution needs to be an even one...
Another thing I thought of last night with regards to the 400 splits: As fast as that 2nd 100m looks, it should be pointed out that it is still 0.3 to 0.4 slower than the 2nd 100m of comparable 200's; just a bit skewed by the time comparison to the open 100...
Dan
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X King
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Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 431
Location: Great Britain
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Justin wrote: | Going up in distance yet again, the great distance runners (Radcliffe, Geb) also run negative splits, from 10k up to Marathon. This is the breakthrough; their fastest splits (laps, miles) are no quicker than their predecessors, they just string together lap/mile after lap/mile at nearly the same pace.
Justin |
Your right about Geb and Radcliffe.
If you take the Fastest 5k Splits back-to-back of a 10K race you get ridiculous times.
MEN
1st 5K:13:11.53s Assefa Mezegebu(ETH) (Geb went through just behind him in 13:11.80s) Helengo 1998
2nd 5K:13:10.95s Haile Gebreselassie(ETH) Helengo 1998
TOTAL:
26:22.48s(WSB)
Gebreselassie's Best TOTAL:
26:22.75s(Which is his World Record and PR!!!)
WOMEN:
1st 5K:14:57.65s Paula Radcliffe(GBR) Munich EurCh 2002
2nd 5K:14:26.09s Wang Junxia(CHN) Asian Games 1993
TOTAL:
29:23.74s(WSB)
I don't know about Radcliffe's Marathon Splits,I think that they are on
http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/women.htm under Unoffcial Half-Marathon Splits I'll check a.s.a.p!!
X King
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X King
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Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 431
Location: Great Britain
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I don't get it.Alognet says that Radcliffe reached the Half-Marathon stage at 68:43,whereas my edition of Athletics Weekly says that reached the Half-Marathon stage at 69:05???What's going on???
From both Alognet ad Athletics Weekly,I can compile this list of the best back-to-back Half-Marathon Splits:
WOMEN
1st Half:68:23 Joan Benoit(USA)
2nd Half:68:13 Paula Radcliffe(GBR)
TOTAL:
2:16:36(WSB)
As for the Men,I'll see what I can do.
X King
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X King
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Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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Location: Great Britain
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: | Another thing I thought of last night with regards to the 400 splits: As fast as that 2nd 100m looks, it should be pointed out that it is still 0.3 to 0.4 slower than the 2nd 100m of comparable 200's; just a bit skewed by the time comparison to the open 100...
Dan |
Well I know that it wasn't a 400m race but it was only 100m short of being one!! Let's review Michael Johnson's 300m World Best set in 2000, in Pretoria GP, South Africa. I have the 100m Splits of that race from literature,the Source was an edition of Athletics Weekly Magazine dated
April 12th 2000,two Wednesdays after the World Best was set.
The Video-Tape Analysis was carefully studied by the person who filmed the race,Mr A.Lennart Julin. 100m Splits were taken at the given 100m Points of that race.
Michael Johnson(USA)
Pretoria,South Africa
Pretoria GP 2000
30.85s(World Best)
100m:10.68s (0.00s)
200m:20.11s (9.43s!!)
300m:30.85s (10.74s!!)
100m Splits:
10.68s/9.43s/10.74s
As you can see,MJ clearly deccelerated in the final stages of that race.
To prove this Julin also Analysed the final 50m Stages for 200-300m.
200m:20.11s (0.00s)
250m:25.24s (5.13s)
300m:30.85s (5.61s!!)
If he would of closed the last 50m in 5.3s,which would of been Michael's 'normal' decceleration of the last 50m in a 300m/400m race,he would of run the last 2 50m Splits of:
200m:20.11s (0.00s)
250m:25.24s (5.13s)
300m:30.54s (5.30s)
With corrected 100m Splits of:
10.68s/9.43s/10.43s
However if you now combine Michael's 100m Split Time Bests of either 300m or 400m races.
0-100m:10.68s Pretoria GP 2000
100-200m:9.43s Pretoria GP 2000
200-300m:10.29s Goteborg WCh 1995
You the get a nice new Total of:
30.40s
And if you then add his Best Last 100m Split of his 400m races you get an Astonishing 400m figure of
0-100m:10.68s Pretoria GP 2000
100-200m:9.43s Pretoria GP 2000
200-300m:10.29s Goteborg WCh 1995
300-400m:11.37s Sevilla WCh 2000
Note that MJ's last 100m Split is from PJ's Video-Tape Analysis Footage of the 1999 Sevilla WCh in 1999.Thankyou PJ!!
Total:41.77s
This figure is only 0.01s outside of the compiled Fastest 100m Splits of
a Men's 400m race.And this has been achieved individually in only 3 different races instead of the more 'common' 4 races!!
X King
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone accomplished one of those standout 2nd and 3rd 100m splits in the same 400m? It would seem that dropping the hammer on the backstretch pretty much rules out not fading on the 2nd turn... Or in the case of MJ's 300, not fading down the homestretch.
Dan
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pierrejean
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Rennes (France)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| X King wrote: | I don't get it.Alognet says that Radcliffe reached the Half-Marathon stage at 68:43,whereas my edition of Athletics Weekly says that reached the Half-Marathon stage at 69:05???What's going on???
From both Alognet ad Athletics Weekly,I can compile this list of the best back-to-back Half-Marathon Splits:
WOMEN
1st Half:68:23 Joan Benoit(USA)
2nd Half:68:13 Paula Radcliffe(GBR)
TOTAL:
2:16:36(WSB)
As for the Men,I'll see what I can do.
X King |
I had the same problems with Radcliffe's split times, Track & Field News and http://www.gbrathletics.com give 69:01 for the half way, the Chicago marathon website gives other data (68:43) but stated they had problems with timing ... so i believe the 69:01 fo instance.
So 69:01 + 68:17 = 2:17:18
Actually, Paula Radcliffe's 2nd half in London was faster than in Chicago, 67:52
The fastest ever halves are:
first Half - 68:23 Joan BENOIT (USA 2:22:43 Boston'83)
last Half - 67:52 Paula RADCLIFFE (GBR 2:18:56 London'02)
total 2:16:15
For men, it could be:
first Half - 61:43 Steve JONES (GBR 2:07:13 Chicago'85)
last Half - 61:23 Ronaldo da COSTA (BRA 2:06:05 Berlin'98 )
total 2:03:06 |
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Dan
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Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:39 am Post subject: |
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If one of those was a chip time (+/- 1 minute or so), it could well explain the discrepancy.
Dan
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pierrejean
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Location: Rennes (France)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:19 am Post subject: |
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This is a try for best ever half + half split times for women races:
100m
first 50m - 5.95 Marion JONES (USA 10.70 Sevilla'99)
last 50m - 4.62 Florence GRIFFITH-JOYNER (USA 10.62 Seoul'88 qf)
total 10.57
200m
first 100m - 11.00 Heïke DRECHSLER (GDR 21.71 Stuttgart'86)
last 100m - 10.16 Florence GRIFFITH-JOYNER (USA 21.34 Seoul'88 )
total 21.16
400m
first 200m - 22.47 Marita KOCH (GDR 47.60 Canberra'85)
last 200m - 24.9 Jarmila KRATOCHVÍLOVÁ (TCH 47.99 Helsinki'83)
total 47.4
800m
first 400m - 54.44 Anita WEIß (GDR 1:56.53 Montreal'76 sf)
last 400m - 57.00 Jarmila KRATOCHVÍLOVÁ (TCH 1:53.28 München'83)
total 1:51.44
1500m (e = estimations from 700/800m splits)
first 750m - 1:53.1e LIU Dong (CHN dnf Beijing'93)
last 750m - 1:51.2e Tatyana KAZANKINA (URS 3:56.6 Moskva'80)
total 3:44.3
(Liu could be considered as a rabbit as she didn't finished the race, but i haven't the other's splits).
3000m (estimations from 1000mn and 2000m splits)
first 1500m- 4:05.9e WANG Junxia 8:06.11 Beijing'93)
last 1500m- 4:00.2e WANG Junxia 8:06.11 Beijing'93)
total 8:06.11
5000m - don't have enough data
10000m
first - 14:57.65 Paula RADCLIFFE (GBR 30:01:09 München'02)
last - 14:26.0 WANG Junxia (CHN 29:31.78 Beijing'93)
total 29:23.7
(15:05.69 was Huandi Zhong's split, Wang followed in 15:05.8 ) |
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X King
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Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 431
Location: Great Britain
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:46 am Post subject: |
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That's great stuff PJ!!
What about Men's Data???
100m:
1st 50m:5.50s Maurice Greene(USA 9.82s Edmonton WCh 2001)
2nd 50m:4.23s Maurice Greene(USA 9.85s Rome GP 1999)
Total:9.73s
That's all that I could muster up at the moment.As those figures are from memory!!I'll have a proper look at my 'Stats' and see what figures that I can come up with.I would like to see what list 'others', can come up with,so that we can all disscuss an compare. Laters!
X is Mysterious,King is Ruler of Greatness
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X King
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| pierrejean wrote: | This is a try for best ever half + half split times for women races:
100m
first 50m - 5.95 Marion JONES (USA 10.70 Sevilla'99)
last 50m - 4.62 Florence GRIFFITH-JOYNER (USA 10.62 Seoul'88 qf)
total 10.57
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I have noticed that you didn't include the Splits that you took for Flo-Jo's 10.49s in Inianopolis '88,from your Video-Tapes.But from your comments and opinions towards the suspicions of that World Record(You know what I'm talking 'bout!)on Various Forums such as the Charlie Francis Forum and the IAAF Forums(Mainly the Champions Corner),I can understand why.
I have compiled from your list of those Splits,The Women's Best 100m Time of 1st and 2nd Halves would be:
100m
1st 50m:5.95s Marion Jones(USA 10.70s Sevilla WCh 1999)
2nd 50m:4.53s Flo-Jo(USA 10.49s Indianopolis US OT 1988)
Total:10.48s(WSB/ World Segment Best)
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pierrejean
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Rennes (France)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: |
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About FloJo, i found for her last 50m 4.52 (not 4.53), with the help of strong wind assistance, according to the flags we see on the videotapes, the stride length, the top speed and the speed maintenance improvement on the race for all the competitors.
About male half + half, it's difficlut to me as i'm not very into men athletics! So i give only the fastest i have found in a quick search in my stuffs and from the top of my head ...
100m
first 50m - 5.50 Maurice GREENE (USA 9.82 Edmonton'01)
last 50m - 4.25 C.LEWIS (USA 9.86 Tokyo'91) D.BAILEY (CAN 9.84 Atlanta'96)
total 9.75
I disagree with your data X King for 4.23 in Roma, it seems too fast, anyway, this Roma track is very hard to analyse for this race, as there is nearly no marks.
200m
first 100m - 10.14 Michael JOHNSON (USA 19.32 Atlanta'96)
last 100m - 9.18 Michael JOHNSON (USA 19.32 Atlanta'96)
total 19.32
400m
first 200m - 20.5 Fred NEWHOUSE (USA 45.4 Eugene'72)
last 200m - 21.8 Michael JOHNSON (USA 43.66 Lausanne'96)
total 42.3
800m
first 400m - 48.25 Wilson KIPKETER (DEN 1:41.24 Zürich'97)
last 400m - 50.5 Steven OVETT (GBR 1:45.40 Moskva'80)
total 1:38.8
1500m
first 750m - 1:42.7 Hicham El GUERROUJ (MAR 3:26.96 Rieti'02)
last 750m - 1:41.1 Sebastian COE (GBR 3:38.40 Moskva'80)
total 3:23.8
2000m
first 1000m - 2:23.8 Ali Saïdi-Sief (ALG 4:46.88 Strasbourg'01)
last 1000m - 2:20.7 Hicham El GUERROUJ (MAR 4:44.79 Berlin'99)
total 4:44.5
3000m
first 1500m - 3:38.6 Daniel KOMEN (KEN 7:20.67 Rieti'96)
last 1500m - 3:40.1 Noureddine MORCELI (ALG 7:25.11 Monaco'94)
total 7:18.7
2 Miles
first Mile - 3:59.8 Daniel KOMEN (KEN 7:58.61 Hechtel'97)
last Mile - 3:57.47 Daniel KOMEN (KEN 7:58.91 Sydney'98 )
total 7:57.3
5000m
first 2500m - 6:21.6 Daniel KOMEN (KEN 12:39.74 Bruxelles'97
last 2500m - 6:17.1 Haile GEBRSELASSIE (ETH 12:39.36 Helsinki'98 )
total 12:38.7
10000m
first 5000m - 13:11.7 Haile GEBRSELASSIE (ETH 26:22.75 Hengelo'98 )
last 5000m - 13:09.9 Paul TERGAT (KEN 26:27.85 Bruxelles'97)
total 26:21.6 |
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