Run-Down Forums

[Hammer]

Conway- do you have any idea what Montgomery is so inconsistant? Does it have to do more with training or his confidence (mental state in general)??

[Conway]

Hmmm ... I think there are several reasons ... He has a very inconsistent start ... Which usually puts him at a disadvantage to the better starters right off the bat ... Usually in ht eposition of "pressing" he then usually has a poor or non existent transition phase - simply coming up into full runing motion ... At this point he is trying to achieve full speed - which he does ... He tends ot make up ground on the field at this point as others are now completing their transition and hitting full speed ... If he is able to clear the field before this happens he can win ... If however the field begins to hit their full speed just as he closes, the stronger athletes - Greene, Chambers, Williams - will usually hold him off or even gain ground away from him ...

Not sure if anyone read the latest TFN with his interview, but he claims to be far from his "perfect" race ... However if you saw his WR race it was a perfect as he will ever get - perfect reaction time and start, went through a proper transition, hit top speed at the right time, and ran through the finish ... The big difference between he and Green is that with the exception of perfect reaction time, Greene runs this type of race every time out ... That is why he has been the most consistent sprinter ever ...

As far as mentally, Tim appears to be one of the more unstable sprinters out there ... I think he owes Greene a lot for his WR from the standpoint that Greene chose not to run in that race ... Had Greene been there Tim would have undoubtably had his focus on Green instead of his race and the WR woudl still be 9.79 !!! Tim is rarely focused on his race, instead usually concentrating on outside influences ..

At least that is my observation of why he is inconsistent ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Dan]

He's also not the typical power sprinter prototype, so he tends (I think) to force the issue and often misses that all important rhythm as a result. All the more reason why I think he could own the 200 ... let the race come to him.

Dan

[Justin]

Tim Montgomery's 100m season was as follows:

9.94A 1 Pretoria 12 Apr
10.03 1 Cape Town 19 Apr
9.95 2 Osaka 11 May (GP)
9.97w 1 Eugene 26 May (Pre)
9.89w 2 Stanford 22 Jun (NC)
10.10 3 Oslo 28 Jun
10.15 2 Lausanne 2 Jul
10.08 4 St Denis 5 Jul
9.94 2 Rome 12 Jul
10.08 1 Stockholm 16 Jul (10.04h)
9.98 1 Zurich 16 Aug (9.93h)
10.05 2 London 23 Aug
9.91 1 Brussels 30 Aug
9.78 1 Paris 14 Sep (GPF)

Now, I don't see an inconsistent sprinter here. He had three mediocre races when he first came to Europe but otherwise was under 10.00 in April, May, June, July, August and September. He won in Zurich and the GPF, the two biggest races of the year. He was only once below the first three, only twice below the first two, in 14 races. He lost to an inspired Chambers in London and an inspired Greene in his NC.

I am puzzled as to why you guys are so down on Montgomery. He seems a nice guy and an interesting character. He has always had the talent - he did run 9.96 at age 19, after all. He has consistently performed at the highest level, usually beyond the expectations people have of him. He is not the only sprinter with a fixation on beating Greene - they all have, you should hear how often Chembers mentions Greene in interviews. What's up? Why the dislike of Montgomery?

Justin

[Conway]

Well, I can't speak for the others, but I will give you my assessment of Tim ... First off my reason for calling him inconnsistent has to do with his racing (which I already described) and his infrequency of winning - in spite of his great talent ...

I would doubt that anyone would disagree with the statement that he is a great talent ... He is most definitely that .. But over the 35 years or so that I have been watching the sport, I have seen lots of great talent ... Some do great things with it and some are on the fringe ... So far he is on the fringe ... At this point he is on par with say Houston McTear or Ivory Crockett; sprinters who out of the blue set a WR but didn't have much else in terms of accomplishements ... They ran well, had lots of good times but were consistent also rans to the best of the day - Steve Williams, Don Quarrie, Steve Riddick, Hasely Crawford, Valery Borzov ...

The other thing for me when I am looking at and evaluating athletes is character ... there have been many great athletes that I have not been very fond of - Carl and MJ to name a couple - because of their characters ... I found them lacking in too many areas and to more detrimental to the sport than positive (IMHO) ... Discussions for another day ... But I have found little positive in Tim's character ... Mo has been a great champion not just in his races but how he has tried ot represent himself off the track ... Tim is a string of embarrassing interviews and events ...

So without getting ling winded and boring that is a microcosm of why I am not a big fan of Tim's ... I route for him when he is representing the US, but that is natioanlistic pride ... Outside of that I am not a big fan ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Justin]

Can you give me some examples of Tim being a series of embarassing interviews etc? The only thing I can remember is his predicting a WR (to much ridicule), something he then achieved. In his BBC interviews (I've seen 5 or 6 this year) he comes across as a nice guy - confident but not arrogant, always with a smile on his face and always gracious in both victory and defeat.

As for inconsistency, I just don't see it. Look again at that 2002 season - 6 months at sub-10 form, just one race off the podium. He won two of the three biggest races of the year (GPF, Zurich) and lost the other by 0.01 (NC) as well as winning in the GL in Brussels. He and Chambers traded wins all year. He didn't lose to Mo after Rome.

And his WR was hardly out of the blue in the context of his career. He's now 27, which we know now is roughly peak age for sprinters; he's been competitive for years and has a string of superb times - 17 under 10.00 and a top 10 average under 9.90 (only Mo and Ato ahead of him). It was out of the blue given the time of the season it was set, but these things are unpredictable, that's why the sport is so good. Who can say when an athlete has their day of days? At least Tim had his in a race that mattered - mattered a lot, since that performance won him the overall GP prize.

I'm still puzzled...

Justin

BTW Michael Johnson was a constant delight while commentating for the BBC. He is extremely pleasant, extremely articulate and extremely knowledgeable.While I can see how Carl Lewis was not to everyone's taste, I'm less clear about why MJ gave cause or concern during his career.

[Dan]

The Montgomery dislike is more Conway's than mine, so I'll leave that to him...

[Conway]

Which to tackle first ??? I'll try Tim ... First I'll say that I come from the era of trash talking ... I watched the likes of Jim Hines, Charlie Green, John Carlos, Jim Green, Tommie Smith, Willie Turner, Ivory Crockett and others ... I've heard trash talking from some of the best ever at it ... Typically people talk trash "after" they have earned the right ... Not before ... Tim has spent the past couple of seasons saying how beatable Mo is when he has yet to beat him ... How he was going to break the record ... After each of Tim's races in South Africa during the early season last year - for example - he was crowing about how he was going ot embarrass Mo, how the record was his for the taking ... And he had run what, 9.94 ?? He ran around and stated in several interviews that Mo was ducking him ... That Mo was afraid of him ... That Mo was done for ... And this was before Mo had even stepped foot on the track - his last previous race being 9.82 !!! For the pasta two seasons he's been crowing about how he has the best top speed in the world, yet had not beaten Mo ... If you look at some of the web sites where sprinters dwell, you will find him to be at the bottom of most peoples lists ... Primarily for this reason .... Sprinters do not object to trash talking ... they relish it ... However ... Talk before earning is taboo in the sprint community ... And Tim has violated that time and again ... And reality is that had Tim not run the record in that last race of the season, we would be having a much different conversation about him and he would not have been in the running for AOY with the IAAF ... One race does not a career make ... And as we have discussed before he may never get close to that again ... Yet he is already predicting 9.75 (see latest issue of TFN) ...

I also belive that times are not as important within the sprint community as they are outside it ... Wins are what beocme important .. Especially here in the states ... There is a pleathora of individuals capable of running fast ... We have high schoolers clocking windy 10.0x's .... So while Tim has had great stats over the past couple of seasons, he has still routinely lost to Mo, to Bernard, to Jon Drummond, to lots of other sprinters ... And while Tim did well at the 01 worlds that was on the heals of not making the 2000 Olympic team - a major failure ... He was also missing from the podium in '99 - ... So while Mo has ben there year in and year out since 97, Tim has been in and out and round about - crowing all the while ...

Doesn't put him high on my charts ...

MJ ... Ah MJ ... I'm gonna say some things what will probably surprise most, as I tend to look at things a little differently than most ... First off MJ ran his mouth too much ... Mostly putting other people down ... Not a positive to me ... He came on the scene putting down what at the time was the greatest group of sprinters ever - SMTC ... Carl was over the hill - this in hte early 90's before he actually was ... Mike Marsh had no shot at him - then Mike went on to Olympic gold and a 19.73 clocking .. When Mo came on the scene in 97 the first thing that MJ said was that Mo was too young and inexperienced to carry the mantle for American sprinting ... And for the record I have all of these statements and more on tape ... He had negative remarks about Quincy Watts who then went on to Olympics gold and 43.50 ... He put down Danny Everett and Steve Lewis once they both became injured ... Major character flaw for me ... Especially given that he had one of the luckiest careers ever ...

Yes I said lucky ... Carl who should have been his superior over 200 never saw fit to focus on it ... And the most overlooked potential in that event (Michael Bates - 20.01/Oly bronze before MJ got a medal) chose the route of football ... Histories best 400 sprinters - Watts, Lewis, Everett, and Reynolds - all had problems as he came on the scene ... Reynolds unfairly losing prime time over a drug suspension dispute .. Lewis and Everrett to injuries ... And then Watts to the bright lights of professinal football - feeling he had already achieved the pinnacle in track and field ... So the cream of 400 running leaves wihtout MJ truly having ot run against them ... HE was left with the likes of Antoino Pettigrew and Jerome Young - not quite the same caliber .. As for the 200 Fredericks held his own fairly well with MJ up thorugh '96 ... I give MJ credit as he won the one's that mattered ... And for that he deserves praise ... But he will forever be remembered for two races - OlyTrials and Games - which in my own opinion sohuld carry an asterisk as they were run on o track engineered for speed which was used ONLY for those races and therefore no one else will have the same opportunity to compete and see if they can potentially approach what he did ... Mexico City's track and stadium are still there ... Sestiere, Athens, Rome, Tokyo all there .... But no one can go ot Atlanta and run on THE track ... In addition MJ did not run a true Olympic schedule ... He lobbbied for and was given a schedule conducive to him and how he wanted to compete ... Had the schedule been left alone things would have been quite different and more than likely Fredericks would have become Olympic champinon and again we would be having a different conversation ...

Finally the man MJ ended up being most like (Carl Lewis) in terms of attitude and everything; he himself hated ... Reminds me of a littel plaque my mother-in-law has in her kitchen : mirrow mirrow on the wall, I have beocme my mother after all ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Micah Ward]

This thread is going in an interesting direction and Dan may want to consider taking it to a new thread of its own.

Specifically, the idea of how do we seperate the athlete from the person. Do we consider an athletes greatness based on their performance alone; or do we take into consideration their personality and character as well?

Just for the record I do believe an athlete's character and "off the field" behavior should be factored into how much "greatness" we attribute to them.

Thoughts gentlemen? And any ladies who may be lurking?
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[Conway]

I agree that we may want to have another thread ... Would like to hear from Justin as he was sort of the catalyst for the diversion ... I sort of introduced the element of character ... But that may or may not have a bearing on Justin's point of view ...

I will say that ultimately greatness is really established on the track (or field) ... When all is said and done all you are left with are statistics ... When most people look at Justin's 100 meter tables, for example, all they see are names and numbers ... Die hards like me remember their running styles, race history, atitudes, etc ... And make some determinations based on those things as well .... To what degree those things are important to others I do not know ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Dan]

[Conway]

I'm also going to throw out something that I mentioned above - circumstance ... To me there is a difference between being dominant against outstanding competition and being dominant against average or sub par competition ...

Granted who is available to compete against is not in the control of the athlete - unless one avoids competition or competitive situtations against certain individuals ... But should it affect how one is remembered or more importantly measured against others ????

In our AOY conversation, for example, that topic was somewhat of an issue as we discussed the undefeated athletes and their relative rank against one another ... My thought is extrapolate that over the career ... just some food for thought ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills

[Micah Ward]

Charles Barkley was famous for his "I am not a role model" statement. I can understand an athlete not wanting to be looked at as a role model and I can understand that athletes should not necessarily be looked upon as role models. But the truth is people, usually young people, look up to athletes whether the athlete desires it or not.

So with that reality in mind, do the athletes have a responsibility to be good role models? There is no doubt that most world class athletes live a "fairy tale" existence, particularly in the US. Our society allows it, so do the athletes owe society the responsibility to be good role models to societies youth? I believe so.
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[Micah Ward]

One more point. The world class athlete who does provide a good role model is, in my opinion, more deserving of the title of "Greatness".
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[Conway]

I htink the role model issue could be an entirely separate thread of its own too ... However I will say that once an athlete decides to take large sums of money, allow himself to be regularly televised, and become an endorser ... Then he or she becomes a role model by default ... And if you don't want that responsibility, then don't sign up by doing the afore mentioned ...

Now having said that, I'm not sure whether or ot role modeldom is a part of the greatness of the athlete or not ... I'll let the rest of you decide that ...
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Conway
Speed Thrills