Run-Down Forums

[coachd]

Will makes a good point with his 200/300 comparison. I have always used 40-42 secs. as the sort of turn-point with regards to workouts that begin to cause adaptation for lactate tolerance. The distance an athlete can cover at the prescribed pace differs according to their ability. A decent college athlete can usually pound out 200 repeats pretty fast--in fact my 800 guys love to run 200's...they are running fast and it's over quick and they recover fairly well--but it takes a lot of reps to get them into the target training zone. 300's on the other hand are looked at as killer...at 40 secs they are "feeling it", but the 300's might be run in 45-48 (with short rest), so they get 5-8 secs. at the end of each rep that are really were we want them working to make adaptations to the pace of an 800 or 1500.

[will]

I've learned, as I've gotten older, that there are some pretty tight physiological constraints for developing certain target zones with fitness. Some things, like MaxVO2 are huge target zones, often easy to hit with different types of workouts. However, when you get into lactate tolerence, power, efficiency and all those variables, it gets pretty complicated.

[will]

I've heard all about sorts of exponential equations that can be used to figure out various intensities and lactate accumulation relative to intensity, but, to me there are three main variables to consider from the purely physiological angle: CP-glycolitic action, ATP and lactate. The first two are primarily energy sources, and lactate, while a transport carrier, generally acts as an inhibitor more than a source of energy. Fiding the right match for specific training depends on the event and the cycle.

Like I said earlier, 800m and 5000m, for example, are two completely different beasts and require very different approaches.

[Dan]

I always looked at the 200/300 issue as the 300's being so much tougher because they're just short enough to seem like they can be run agressively like a 200 but long enough to really burn like a 400.

Dan

[will]

Kind of like D said, it's that last few seconds I find the real pain, not the first 35-40.

[coachd]

I feel kinda dumb---okay real dumb...

In the example I gave for the ratio...I used 230 seconds (3:50) when it should have been 225 seconds (3:45) which is the time Coe ran within a few weeks of that particular workout. The change makes the equivalent 400 time 66.6. Not that the times were all that important--just demonstrating one way of constructing a workout for athletes of varying abilitities...but still--I pride myself on providing accurate workout times for my athletes.

[Dan]

Don't worry, I couldn't follow one of the lines in your equation (60:X as ...) and didn't go as far as checking your numbers.

Dan

[mcmillan]

There was a question earlier in this thread about the difference between a steady-state run and a tempo run as listed on my calculator. I'll provide a quick answer as to why I break the training that improves your lactate threshold (which I call Stamina training on the site) into several types of workouts.

We now know that there are mutliple ways to improve your lactate threshold. We also know that the lactate threshold has been defined in many, many ways and as a result, interpreting training recommendations has been difficult. In my masters thesis, I examined the research on improving the lactate threshold and it appears that any training done between 2.5 and 4.0 mmol of lactate in the blood results in improvements in your lactate profile. (These lactate levels are correlated to race pace as defined on my website.) I also believe that work done at varying lactate levels within this zone improve the lactate threshold in slightly different ways which can be important depending on the adaptation you want, usually related to your event and/or phase of your training.

Steady-state workouts result in lactate levels closer to the 2.5 mmol level and appear to help improve the [u]effiiciency [/u]of the body's ability to "turnover" the byproducts of lactic acid production. Cruise intervals are on the other extreme and work near the 4.0 mmol level and provide opportunities for the body to improve its [u]capacity[/u] to "turnover" the byproducts. Tempo runs and Tempo intervals are other subtle workouts that fall in between steady-state and cruise interval workouts.

I will say that sometimes, this is splitting hairs but I've found great results by including each of these workouts into the training program with more emphasis on steady-state and tempo runs for longer distance runners (15K -marathoners) and more emphasis on tempo intervals and cruise intervals for middle distane runners (800m - 10k). Having variety seems to keep the body adapting whereas using just one type of lactate threshold (Stamina) workout can lead to staleness.

Hope this helps.

As an aside, Horwell knows his stuff. Just err on the conservative side during your first time using this new training regimen. Let your body absorb the training and it will gradually reward you with better and better performance. Get overzealous and you'll be injured or stale by the time of your key race(s).

Greg McMillan
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www.McMillanRunning.com

[Dan]

Greg, thanks for stopping by and explaining your system. All seems to make pretty good sense.

Dan

[Paul]

I have spent the last couple of days reading info on McMillan's running site after going to the calculator thread. It has to be one of the best places I've gone to, to get a complete training system explained in detail, step by step.

Runners who have logged in to ask very specific questions concerning training and nutrition would do well to investigate the information at his website.

Paul

[Hammer]

I still believe that runners running the same pace @ different speeds should not be trained alike. The 200/300 comparison seems to back up my point. I believe that a runner is affected more by time than by distance and that the changes that occur over a run happen over time and without reguard to distance.

[Hammer]

Just off of the top of my memory: Tempo or LT pace is +-30/mile slower than 5k race pace.

What is the calculation for Steady State Pace?

[Dan]

[Hammer]

Sorry DAN

Same RACE different speeds.

[Dan]

Ok, that makes more sense. In that case, I would agree, but only if the abilities are significantly enough different. My 5k example previously was only to illustrate a large time gap and the effect it might have on training levels. Much tougher to find cut-off points like that in something as short as the 800, although they probably are there somewhere. Still, I think a better way to split things up is by responsiveness to specific training stimulii, not solely by time.

Dan