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Micah Ward · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:28 am Post subject:

Isn't it interesting that one of the most celebrated cult figures in American running was Pre. And he never ran a sit and kick race. He was all out from the start. Who knows how successful he would have been in the long run with that strategy?
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Distance_Guru · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:28 am Post subject:

It really isn't that simple. I've seen races where the kickers repeatedly passed and then slowed down in front of an athlete who was trying to push the pace. Also front running is very hard. Especially when you have to do it all yourself, if your pace is off by just a little you can burry yourself. The stradegy that works most affectively is usually to let the pace setters (usually the kickers or a slower runner who just got suckered into being the leader) have the lead and at some point in the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the race make one move and try to break the field. Of coarse depending on a lot of things (pack size, early, pace, weather, how the athlete is feeling, other runners in the pack, ect) the move may or may come until after the kicking has already started.
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Hammer · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:49 am Post subject:

Conway · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 8:41 am Post subject:

If I am not mistaken, Pre had the lkes of Shorter, George Young, Jack Bachelor, Dick Buerkle, Jeff Galloway, Gerry Lindgren and Don Kardong domestically ... Internationally he had the likes of Viren, Roelants, Bedford, Puttenmans, and Stewart ... Arguably the "competition" was stiffer for Pre both domestically and internationally than it is for today's distance runners !!!!

and movies aside, Pre's tactic was simple - to give his best every time he stepped on the track ... The biggest problem his coach had was in trying to get him to hold back ... And watching Pre run (especially in person) was an awesome site ... He just went out and went for it !!!!

And DG I do think it is really that simple ... Someone who "trades" the lead with a kicker is just waiting to be beaten ... Yes it is hard to lead - I've tried it and can't do it ... Which means you have ot train to do specifically just that ... It seems to me that another difference between sprinters and distance runners is that sprinters train to hone their strengths and minimize their weaknesses ... Distance runners just seem to train - if that makes any sense ... I would think you train to execute a strategy - your strategy ... Your best opportunity to win ... Not train to get in shape and get in arace and hope everything turns out ok ... I get back ot women distance runners who seem to train more to execute their strengths ... And then do so come race time ... You always knew how Mary Decker was going to run ... How Suzy Hamilton or Regina Jacobs is going ot run .. Puica and Ivan and currently Ayhan ... And unless you are a Gebressellasie (who can run any kind of pace in any kind of race and is simple stated a studs stud) then you have ot find YOUR race and learn how to execute it ... If you are a sprinter you focus on your start or your finish or the turn ... Not that you ignore the rest of your race ... You just make sure that the part of the race you do well, you do VERY well !!! Every time out ...
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Conway
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Hammer · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:06 am Post subject:

If I'm not mistaken PRE's reputation grew out of his collegiant (sp) performances that were, for the most part, pretty one sided. And I do believe that one of his NCAA XC championships came by running from off the pace.

I do think that PRE ran hard, don't get me wrong, but the idea that PRE ran all out every race has grown more out of his reputation.

Conway · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:29 pm Post subject:

Pre won several national championships outside of the collegiate arena, set everal American records and ran several near record races ... All against the individuals that I named ... And all using his tenacious front running style ... Pre was much more than a callegiate darling ... His reputation was very well earned and very much deserved .. On this I must disagree ... Pre's legend is not something that was reaned from fatastic story telling after his death ... See I grew up watching Pre as much as I did Steve Williams, Valery Borzov and Don Quarrie ... Pre was the real deal ...

and I must add that the era that he came from had many gutsy hard charging racers ... Most of those I named in my earlier post qualify as such ... Wait and kick was NOT standard fare during that era ... Athletes raced much more than today ... And the results showed it ...
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Conway
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Distance_Guru · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:55 pm Post subject:

I've seen enough mistakes or incorrect statements in the last two or three posts to spend an hour trying to correct them, unfortunatly I've got family coming over and only have a few minutes.

Dan · Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:56 pm Post subject:

Conway · Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:45 am Post subject:

Hammer · Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:19 pm Post subject:

Dan · Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:44 pm Post subject:

I think Conway is referring to both domestic and international competition, with Steve Holman's many 1500m "failures" in national championships being prime examples.

Dan

Hammer · Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 5:37 pm Post subject:

Now this whole thread brings up a lot of old (sore) points: distance coaches v. sprint coaches and US distance runners v. the rest of the world's distance runners.

Now if Conway IS using Holeman as an example of BAD US MALE DISTANCE RACING, that is really unfair considering that he may be the biggest choke artist of all time. I would like to hear some other examples exe: Kennedy's trial race (wasn't he injured) and Webb's 1500m final (also injured through most of the year)

Dan · Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:28 pm Post subject:

Even without Holman in the field, you typically have someone like Lassiter who should be a clear favorite, yet neglects to run his own race and gets edged out in a blanket finish by a bunch of kickers. It isn't just Holman choking, it's the way the entire group (not just Americans, but they seem to be among the worst in that respect) approaches mid-distance racing tactics and the inevitable failure of the favorites as a result. Ditto for every 800m since Johnny Gray and Mark Everett were at their respective primes...

Dan

Distance_Guru · Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 11:47 pm Post subject:

Let me see of I can't tie a nice bow around this topic as it apears that (of all people!) Hammer and Dan have done a nice job wrapping it up. First off I will say this that to sit and kick when you are as far above your compotition as say El G is, is simply foolish. If however you aren't a favortite then the best you can hope for is to take one of two stradigies. First is to just run your race so as to take advantage of your strengths. Or you may try to sit and kick so as to leave yourself in the front group for as long as possible. That all depends on your goals and how the race breaks down.

Now as for Americans first and foremost need to get faster in the total race. We will never see another medal in the 5000 (the primary event used as an example lately) if our best runners can't consistantly be under 13:05 (and thats pushing it). Now as for mid distance it has always seemed to me that timing is everything. Unless you have someone who can take the pace and lead wire to wire mid distance races seem to always be won by the athlete that times his late race surge the best. Krummancker of late has become very good at doing this, also he generally goes from farther out than most, a tribute to his strength. Until his emergance this year we (Americans) really haven't had a top notch 800 runner since the days of Johny Grey, so again I find more of a lack of ability rather than a lack of tactical know how. And I too generally write off Holman as a choke artist so again we've been lacking a top notch miler for longer than we've been lacking a 800 runner.

On a side note both Kennedy and Webb were coming off injuries, but watching both of those races I'm sure BK could have finished in the top 3 and Webb could have won had they run smarter races as opposed to trying to run from the front the length of the race.
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Conway · Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 9:22 am Post subject:

I agree with you DG !!!! Dang that's scary ... LOL ... I would like ot add one thing and I am going ot relate it to sprinting - becasue as I thought this weekend the two are more similar than one might think ...

the key to the whole thing is conditioning - being in shape to handle the kind of race you need to run ... I am oging ot use the longest sprint as an example, althought it fits the 200 as well (the 100 is separte in this case) .. The 200 has 2 distinct half (laps) and depending on how you view the race 4 distinct parts ... But I will deal with the two 200 meter halfs ... Most World Class q-milers can run around 20.60 or better .. NOw one doesn't run that fast in the first half of a q-mile but one has to be able to run around 21.00 to 21.50 AND THEN be able to come back with a solid 2nd 200 ... Guys like Watts, MJ, and Reynolds were able to come back around 22.00 ... Most guys now come back in 23.00 ... The difference in running a sub 44 or a sub 45 !!!

Now the differentials are much tighter in the sprints, but the philosophy is the same ... You can try to run even paced 22.0/22.0 or you can run off the pace 22.5/21.5 or you can be a front runner 21.0/23.0 (or hope you can finish in 22.5 Wink

) !!! But the key is preparation and running the race that fits YOU the best .... When someone goes by you and you decide to "race" them and abandon yoru race more often than not you lose !!!

Simply put, high quality racing requires great preparation AND great discipline ...
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Conway
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