Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

Hmmm ... I would agree with those ... But I would also say that all of those things turned distance running into more of a more relaxed part of the sport ... Anyone can do it ... And everyone does ... But because everyone does there is a less competitive nature to it ... Everyone does their best ... And everyone is happy with what they do ... That is nice, but a long way from the competitive attitude that one must have in order to truly compete ... As a result we create a lot of distance running people .... But not a lot of distance runners - competitors ... Only those that have talent enough to sort of rise above the rest on their own begin to look at distance running competitively ... But by then they are at a distinct disadvantage to their peers in other parts of the world ...

There is no recreational sprinting, hurdling or field events, so if you are going to do it all you have to become competitive and develop a competitive nature about ... There is no comunalism ...

We had a ruanning boom but no boom in running .... Go figure ....

[Micah Ward]

I disagree about the lack of competiveness being a result of the boom. An elite runner should be pushing as hard as he can no matter if he has 10 or 10,000 people behind him. As the mass numbers of runners enter the road races the increase comes from those of us in the mid to back. Are we competitive? HELL YES WE ARE!!! Our competition is very heated even if we don't have the talent to run with the leaders. We are still trying to set PR's, win age group trophies, clydesdale awards or just beat that guy with the obnoxious haircut that beat us in the last two 5K's. Do a large number of people just jog through a race? Of course. But there are some battles going on at 9:00 pace that are just as intense as the ones going on at 5:00 pace.

When you have run 5 or 6 races in an area you get an idea of who the local runners are that run a similar pace to you. And you recognize them and they recognize you; and every race becomes a competition among the group of you. And I love it!!!!!!!!!!

At the risk of sounding chauvinistic I will admit that when I was in my prime, my goal in most races was to key on the fastest female and try to beat her. Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't. But it made for great competition.

[Dan]

I doubt there is a sport worse than running in terms of marketability and merchandising. Runner's and running spectators have a well deserved reputation of being very cheap, not that I view that as a bad thing. I don't think a very strong case can be made for road racing participation paying off in consumer/sponser spending. As for shoes, many would argue that "improved" technology since the 70's has actually resulted in more injuries. Not quite sure where I stand on that issue.

More participants? Yes. More road races? Maybe. Less track races? Yes. Less cross country races? Yes. I'd call that a wash at best...

Run-Down created its own need.

[Conway]

Micah ... You misunderstood what was meant by competitive ... I have run road races believe it or not ... and trust me I know that everyone out there is competing for something ..

By competitive I was referring to elite level of competition ... an elite runner does push himself as hard as he can every time out ... The issue is how do you get to be an elite runner ??? It is not through the type of running that we are referring to ... But a ton of people get into running that way and enjoy it ... And I think that is great ... It is just not conducive to development of the elite distance runner ... At least in my opinion ... I'm not putting it down at all ... I think it is great actually ... I wish the same type of thing existed for sprinters and hurdlers and the like ... Would be wonderful for the thousands of people who have to quit the sport each year because they can't get under 10.30, or anywhere close ... And that within itself is a tragedy ...

[Micah Ward]

OK guys, it looks like another area we will have to agree to disagree. First, the mass participation of us mid and back of the pack runners should have no impact whatsoever on what the elites do. Whether or not I can ever train myself to run under a 6 minute pace for a 5K has absolutely no bearing on how Scott Larson, Deena Drossin or anyone else trains and races. They line up at the front and have their race and we line up behind them and have ours.

If 20,000 people train for the New York City marathon with the only goal being that of finishing, how does that affect the training of the elites? No affect at all. And if an elite is distracted simply because there is a big crowd behind him then that guy doesn't have the mental toughness to start with. Yep, that is a hard statement...but I happen to believe in the necessity of mental toughness and I can not abide whiners. And if a new runner has the talent to become an elite it is up to him to develop it. Us slow guys aren't holding him back. He is responsible for his own success.

Dan, I totally disagree with your statement about consumer/sponsor spending. Although I think certain companies could spend more, the fact is that many companies sponsor races every weekend. And would Nike and New Balance, just to name two, exist today if not for the running boom? Certainly not as they do today.

Are you guys conspiring to disagree with me all the time?

[Conway]

Not trying to disagree with you Micah ... And I am in no way any part of a conspiracy to do so ... And on this topic, while we disagree (to some extent) I think you misunderstand why we disagree ...

I have no problem with the myriad of runners who are taking part in the sport on a "non elite" level ... I am thrilled that ya'll are all out there (and wish I had the intestinal fortitutde to do so myself) ... And I do not think that your participation in any way shape or form is inhibiting the performance of the "elites" ...

What I have been trying to say, is that I think that there are people who are somewher in the middle of the pack who may have elite or near elite ability ... But because they have come up through a system that does not focus on what I am going to call "competition" in order to survive in it, they have not pushed themselves to reach an elite level in th esame way that they may have had the system simply been reach elite-ness or there is no more running for you ... A system that says in order to stay in the sport you have to become very very good or get out ...

See, while the running boom created a lot of runners, there was no premium or value set on how good you had to become ... Almost a sort of reverse Darwinism ...

Am I making any kind of sense at all ???

[Dan]

[Micah Ward]

The near elites do need a proper environment to develop their talents and receive encouragement. But instead of putting the blame on the "road race culture" lets challenge the high schools and colleges to provide that atmosphere of encouraging excellence in developing their teams. After college we then need some creative ways to take the near elite and continue that development, because a distance runner does not reach his peak until around 30. One very encouraging program right now is the Army's World Class Athlete Program. They have a half dozen guys who are active duty soldiers who are given the facilities and time to train at the world class level and they are coached by Arturio Barrios, a former world class runner. These guys do not have to worry about a pay check, insurance, medical benefits, etc. How good are they? Not bad. One of them is Dan Brown. You will see his name at the top of the US list at a lot of races. Of course these guys had to be willing to join the Army for this opportunity but that may not be such a bad trade off.

Now a war story about competition in the middle of the pack. It was the Fall Festival 5K in Duluth, GA. I was having a suprisingly good run. In fact I would finish 17th of 76 that day. At about a mile and half some people in their front yard were cheering the runners and were particularly loud as I came by. But they were not cheering for me. They were cheering for the lady who passed me while pushing a "jogging stroller" with a child in it! There was no way on God's green earth that I was going to let a woman pushing a baby carriage beat me!!! I surged and took up the chase and very soon realized there wasn't a thing I could do about the situation. As I ran faster and she steadily pulled away all I could do is tip my hat in admiration. She went on to finish in the top ten. What a runner!!! Oh yeah...the baby was laughing the entire time.
Micah...Beaten by a woman pushing a baby carriage.

[Dan]

Unfortunately, I don't think the US school system is much more conducive to nuturing good runners... As has been discussed previously, the areas where the US is consistently strongeset -- the sprints -- are where the top athletes seem least likely to come out of the big Division I programs. The club system seems to be the best approach, but I'm not sure how feasible it is.

The Army program seems to be a good setup for the athletes involved. Dan Browne ran for a high school in my district. He's a year younger than me, so I saw a fair amount of him in his early days. Amazing how rapidly he developed from a fairly slow, scrawny little kid into one of the more muscularly built national champs I can remember. Really, the progress was mostly during his Junior year, as I recall, with him growing into his body sometime later. He's a good example of sticking with it and reaping rewards that may not have been initially apparent. Of course, he's also a good example of racing *way* too often and being locked in at pretty much the same level indefinitely as a result... The lure of prize money can be rather strong, I suppose.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I can't think of any examples to the contrary, so let me ask: Have any of the athletes in the Army program showed significant progress *while* being there?

Don't worry Micah, I've had some embarrassing defeats myself... I once got beat by a blind guy, in a cross country race no less! The only consolation is that it was one of my worst races ever, so bad that just finishing was an achievement.

Dan

[ This Message was edited by: Dan on 2001-11-15 02:27 ]

[Micah Ward]

There is a good article in the December Running Times about the Army program. Shawn Found finished 4th at the Oly Trials 10K, Jason Stewart finished 7th at the marathon trials and Teddy Mitchell finised 10th at the marathon trials. The article doesn't specifically address improvement since joining the program but the requirements for entry are pretty stiff. You must be ranked in the top 15 percent nationally in your event and the times they are looking for to gain entry are: 13:52 5K, 29:00 10K, 2:20 marathon and 8:44 steeplechase. The article also pointed out that you can be dropped from the program for failure to improve. Although it did not get into the specifics, the Air Force and Marine Corps also have similar programs. I think it is a good start. Interestingly, several of the runners say that they also enjoy the military aspects of being there.

Don't feel bad about the blind runner. There is a blind runner in Atlanta named Tim Willis that ran the Peachtree 10K in about 35:00. He has also competed in the Paralympics. He has a guide runner that runs with him and they are connected by a shoe string that each one ties around a finger. His biggest difficulty is finding guides who are fast enough for him.

[Dan]

I'm not familiar with Jason Stewart, but the other guys were at a very high level before entering the program, especially Teddy. I don't think the program is to blame for his (Teddy) decline, though. Found is someone, like Browne, who has commented on really benefitting from the disciplined structure of the Army program. If you'd seen him a couple of years ago...

I'm not sure, but I don't think the top 15% in the US would be anywhere near a 29-flat 10k. Going by David Monti's lists, only 10 men ran sub-2:20 for the marathon in '01 (lists end August 15th, so there are probably more from Chicago and NY) and 27 in 2000, with Teddy not having a sub-2:20 in either one (as best I can tell, he doesn't even have a mark in '99, but I'm not positive the marathon is his focus). I know there are more than 180 marathoners in this country...

I don't know how strict the Army program is about it, but from what I know of other clubs and their "maintenance" levels, those minimum requirements they speak of are usually just PR criteria. Rarely does anyone run the times they supposedly have to produce each time out, but there's no one else contesting for their spot on the team, so all's fine.

I think Tim Willis may have actually been the person I "ran" against... He had two guides in that race (is that honest effort having two people pace and coach you throughout a race? ), which made for a rather large road block on the few occasions I mustered the desire to try and pass.

Dan

[Conway]

Embarrassing races eh ??? Here's one for you ... And it's a true story .. My junior year in high school I ripped a hamstring real bad ... REcovered by the end of the season, then tore it again during the summer ... So spent a great deal of time rehabbing - end of summer and thru the fall .. Was ready to start competing spring of senior year but the leg was still tender - especially starting coming out of the blocks ... Starting was never my strong point anyway - my idols were Bob Hayes, Tommie Smith and Steve Williams, who needed a start - So was somewhat tentative out of the blocks for the first few weeks of the season ...

After the first couple of weeks there was word of a girl that was beating guys (mid 70s and girls track was barely invented in high school so often girls ran with guys) .. And we were going to an early season invitational that she was going to be running in ... This meet had trial heats in the morning and then finals in the afternoon ... And I had the girl in my morning heat !!! Having gone to the state meet as a sophmore (the hamstring injury kept me out as a junior - but barely) I got a lot of teasing about "not letting the girl beat me" in my heat ... And of course I said there was no way this girl was gonna keep up with me let alone beat me ...

Watched her warming up and she was pretty good ... But still a girl ... And no way was she going to embarrass me the way she had some "slower" guys she had run against ... Well we lined up ... Were called to our marks .. Got set ... And bang the gun went off ... Came out brought my head up and was a little behind as usual .... BUT THE GIRL WAS ONE OF THE GUYS AHEAD OF ME !!!! Quickly accelerated went past her and the others and backed off a little as I approached the line - trying to play it off as if it was no big deal and I had the race under control ....

Well I got teased for most of the rest of the season because a girl had "beat" me for about 30 - 40 meters !!! Ran a 10.8 in that heat .. And a 10.6 in the final (to win) to sort of prove that I was in control ... And vowed not to run any slower than that for the rest of the season ... Pretty much ran 10.7 or fster the rest of the season but could never live down that 30 - 40 meters ... ..

Oh ... By the way the girl went on to run in several Olympics .. Took sprinting supremacy from the Germans ... And set a WR ... Her name was Evelyn Ashford ... And she spent her senior year in high school at Roseville High just outside of Sacramento as her father was in the military and they transfered to the area ... Best girl I ever ran against !!!!

[Dan]

As I was reading that story, I had a strong suspicion it was going to turn out to be Ashford. The time and the times seemed about right... Considering your h.s. times are right in line with what the best female sprinters have run, being given a run for your money by arguably the best ever isn't exactly an embarrassment.

Dan

[Justin]

I'm surprised you were allowed to run against each other - mixed competition was always banned when I was a kid, although I could never work out if that was to protect the girls from too-tough competition or save the boys from humiliation!

This reminds me of a funny Dean Macey story (there are many, he's a wonderful person). His 100m best is around 10.6-10.7 which means he's about as quick as Marion Jones and he says that since the Decathlon is usually shortly after the women's 100m he always sets Jones's time as the slowest he dare run, lest he go home as slower then the quickest woman in town. He added that he's terrified of her running near to 10.60 because he's not sure he can go that quick!

Justin

[Conway]

Unfortunately here in California there were no track teams for girls until my sophomore year in high school ... And of course it took a few years before there were enough girls involved for the teams to gain in numbers and strength ... So up til then if a girl wanted to run track, she ran with the guys !!! Maybe that why the early to mid 70s developed some outstanding femal athletes - Decker, Wysocki, Brisco, Ashford, Cheeseborough ... Just to name a few ... And they all are still high on the all time lists ...