Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

First off Guru I did read that post ... Just don't think of strides as speed work ..

Having said that I commend you on some of the things that you are doing with your guys .. 4x4 work I think is great and having some guys in the 48 second range is where I would want them to be (if not better - can always be better) ..

I am not advocating entire practices to speed work .. But I do think that signifficant portions can be used to address speed/speed endurance ...

And I do think that speed is an issue .. You can't kick a 51/52 when tired if your best is onlly 50/51 ...

[Hammer]

Conway we all want American Distance runner back on the podium we just disagree on how to get them there.

When we did have them on the podium (during the running boom) we had a lot of athletes doing what most americans would call overtraining. Somewhere in the late 70s people started to find an easier way of getting fast (substitute a lot of mileage w/a lot of speed) ans abviously it didn't work. Many Americans agree with you Conway and they "overspeed" their distance runner and make them shallow. yeh they have great speed but they can't hold that speed. You are not rocking the boat you are going with what many believe to be the answer. Well it is. It is the wrong answer.

[Distance_Guru]

Hammer has a point, back when Americans were at the top of their game, the main way they were training was with Lydiard based training programs. They ran a lot and they ran hard, the methods that Ryun inparticular used were based off Arthur Lydiards methodology. Since then decreased mileage and increased speed emphisis has replaced the higher mileage, systems of the past, and look where it's gotten us. Until Matt Wettmore at CU recently brought the Lydiard method of training back to the forefront all the rage was the short and fast methods of training, and in the short term these methods get quick results but they don't build the long term areobic capacity and running economy that get runners to the level of the best in the world.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Conway]

I don't disagreee with you as much as you think .. I am NOT an aadvocate of replacing distance with speed work .. What I am saying is that the distance IS needed ... Hell sprinters need it .. What I AM saying however is that a way to add speed to the diet needs to be found .. Whatever it is that people claims to be speed isn't producing speed nor is it producing stamina ..

I would be curious as to Ryun's workouts as he HAD speed ... THe same with some of hte others that I have mentioned .. My question at this point is whether or not their speed was natural or somehow developed through their workouts or somewhat natural and enhanced by training ...

[Hammer]

There is a reason that Wettmore @ CU and Vandenbush @ Western State are dominating their respective divisions in XC. Lydiard based mileage systems.

[Distance_Guru]

They don't just dominate on the cross country coarse either, Wettmore has atheletes that are amoung the favorites to win the 3000 steeplechase, the 5000, and the 10,000 on the mens side, and is in a similar situation with his women's team. Vandenbaush has already had national champs this year in the mens 10k, the women's 10k and 3k and has runners favored to win the men's 5k and women's 5k and 1500. And that's not counting indoor, where Western tied for second at nationals with points comeing only fromthe mile and 5000. To quote coach Vandenbaush speeking to one of his female runners after she had one the 1500, 3k and 5k at the conference championships "see what happens when you get your weekly mileage over 65 and keep it there!" This girl is only a sophmore, so my money says she'll be around 80 a week by the time she's a senior.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

There are a few too many mis-represenations of facts in this discussion for my taste...

Colorado dominating XC? Well, they're certainly one of the top programs, but how many team titles have they won compared to Arkansas and Stanford (recently and historically)?

Colorado's dominance due to [Mark] Wettmore's use of the Lydiard methods? Were Ritzenheim, Torres and Torres, and Goucher, to name a few, not among the best US athletes ever coming out of high school? Have many of CU's athletes not done better after graduating?

[Distance_Guru]

Wow that was a long post!

[Conway]

While Guru ignored that very long post I won't !!!!! Why ??? Becasue it is everything I have been talking about .... Long distance work and speed work incorporated into a trainingi philosophy !!!!! THAT is what I am talking about ...

As for Wettmore et al and their accomplishments ... While they have done well against their contemporaries ... They still have NOT accomplished tghe results that we are discussing - creating world class competitive runners ... Saying that they are the best of the current lot is like saying that a group of JV runners are the best JV runners in the land ... That is fine if the goal is to be the best JV runners in the land ..... However if the goal is to beat the varsity then there is still much morek to be done ... And their accomplishments to date do NOT prove the ability to develop the desired results .... As what they have done is still mediocre when compared to the bench mark ..

Now back to that long post ... THAT is exactly what I have been saying ... Gto to develop distance strength and endurance .. BUT MUST HAVE some pure speed work to get the fast times !!!!! And in my opinon until this kind of work is done by our distance runners they will remain also rans internatinonally ... And THAT is what we are talking about ... Not who is better than who here in the states ... But rather HOW are we going to become competitive internationally !!!!

[Dan]

No question that Lanana has had amazing recruiting classes to work with. Often overlooked is that Stanford's women consistently get just as strong, if not stronger, classes and rarely put together anywhere near as competitive a group when it counts. Granted, Lanana is partly responsible for coaching the women, but I think he deserves a healthy amount of credit for convincing a bunch of stars to accept being part of a team. Stanford has also had a number of walk-on type athletes who have gone on to be competitive. How many people can recite the high school stats of Grant Robisson or Jeane Goff (2 local athletes I'm familiar with)?

Arkansas has done a lot of their damage with international athletes, but McDonnell has also done an amazing job of pulling runners together for the big meet and getting some rather unheralded kids to perform much better than expected. I actually find that program very interesting. Arkansas has a reputation for churning out athletes that don't do much after college (Drossin is a very notable exception), implying much of what has been said above in this thread about sacrificing base in favor of speed for short-term gain. However, they also have a reputation for training through virtually every race in XC, never really peaking their runners (all the more difficult to figure out how they always run well in the big meet), and training a ton. Part of what I find interesting about that seeming contradiction is that it's a microcosim of this overall discussion -- the same situation can be pulled from to support arguments on either side, yet there's no evidence that either side is right. Partly why I say speaking in absolutes only guarantees you'll be wrong half the time... "You are not rocking the boat you are going with what many believe to be the answer. Well it is. It is the wrong answer." Need I say more?

Dan

p.s. Most of the length of the previous post had nothing to do with my own writing.

[Hammer]

Here is my opinion in a nut shell (hope this can clear up some points.)

I fear Speed Oriented Training Modules for several reasons:
1. Most HS and College coaches use them and thus sacrifice the amount of mileage needed to produce World Class Distance Runners.
2. Most HS and College coaches are trying to get the best out of their runners @ that particular time and do not pay attention to the life plan of the runner.
3. It gives young runners a false sense of reality. (speed is substututed for mileage in creating a good HS runner and then that runner believes that he or she can keep improving on minimal mileage.)

The Infamous Long Post by Dan brought up some interesting points:
1. Ryun did a great job of incorporating speed into his training plan, while he was trianing +-95miles/week in HS to run World Class mile times. Webb and Ritz averaged in the 50s and 60s respectivly.
2. Ryun did a lot of speed training in his late HS and early College career. Some people believe that he was overtrained (mileage and speed??) I believe he was trained correctly for the time. He did end his career early but so what, look what he accomplished!!!!

I think it is irresponsible of HS coaches (especially) to gear their athlets to a speed oriented system. I believe that the way to get the US out of this rut is through the incorporation of more mileage @ younger ages. Coaches need to look at the life plan and not concentrate on winning now. Besides HS Track and XC coaches rarely get fired so they might as well do their job correctly and help out the distance community.

[Dan]

I understand all of your points, but a lot of college coaches will tell you the biggest risk is taking on an athlete that ran heavy mileage in high school. They tend to rarely reach the same level in college as a result.

What I take from that is that a balance needs to be reached (largely why I object to the "mileage freak" backlash to speedwork -- again, I am not anti-mileage), because the same pitfalls occur from too much speed or too much base. Ryun appears to have achieved an excellent balance, for what it's worth.

Dan

[Conway]

I am confused as to why distance folks seem to think in terms mof absolutes ... Speed oriented ... Mileage oriented ... I AM NOT ANTI MILEAGE ... I just believe that SPEED needs to be an integral part of the training ... At any age .... And I think the Ryun workouts show that that is possible and that it CAN work ...

I find it funny that whenever I mention speed the responnse is "OH NO, THAT WILL RUIN THE ATHLETE" .. Well I guess more athletes need to be ruined if that produces the likes of Ryun, Webb and Ritz !!!!!!

Anyone watch the prefontaine distance races ??? For all the mileage the AMericans are putting in it was speed that put them out of each of the races ... Or should I say lack there of ....

[Micah Ward]

Look at what speed did for Teeter in the 1500. I wonder what type of speed training she does?

[Micah Ward]

Just had another thought after I posted that last one. I lurk on an ultrarunning list from time to time and it is interesting that even those guys talk about the necessity of incorporating speed work into training for ultras.

The bottom line is that no matter what the distance, with everything else being equal, the guy with faster leg turnover will win.