Run-Down Forums

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

I am getting sick and tired of that setting themselves up for failure garbage. It annoys the hell out of me that every time someone on this board differs with someone else that cliche phrase always comes up. It reminds me of the Back to The Future Movies where all sombody had to do to get under Marty's (Micheal J Fox) skin was to call him a chicken.

Now back to your last, post observation is the purest form of study. Unfortunatly there are things that can't be observed. Reading texts on training allows you to greatly improve your knowledge of a sport and to get a better understanding of what you are actually observing. For example lets say you have an 800 runner that rutinely falls apart at the 600 meter mark. You will have a much better chance of knowing why if you are able to take a solid base of knowledge in physiology and use that to determine why he's crashing and burning at that point in the race. Obviosly the athlete wasn't able to deal with the excess amount of lactic acid that was in his system, now the question is why. It could be he a lack of anaerobic conditioning left him with a low lactate threshold. It could be that a lack of aerobic capacity or aerobic conditioning training left him unable to fully take advantage of his lactate threshold. It could be that he has a less than optimally trained acid tolerance. It could be that the way he is running the race is making a lack of trianinig in one area or the other worse. But unless you have a good base of knowledge in physiology you will have to guess. Where as if you do have a good base of knowledge you take what you know of the human body and how it reacts both to training in the long term and racing in the short term and use that in conjunction with observations and records from training and racing and determine where the diffecency lies.

As for what you do if you have two physiology texts that say opposing things. You read a third and a fourth... I am fortunate enough to have my degree in this area so I already started with a descent understanding and pretty well can tell the good from the not so good when it comes to quaility research. As for everyone else read and read lots once you develope a base of knowledge and then you make an educated decsion as to which is correct. If you want to call it a guess fine but it's an educated guess and the better educated the guess the more likely the guess is to be correct. And the more you know about physiology then the more eduacted your guesses will become.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Ok, is there some way you would rather I phrase things than "setting themselves up for failure?" I have a saying that those who accuse other people of being too stubborn in a disagreement are often equally as stubborn. You like to point out how sick you are of me disagreeing with you, but I don't see you any more willing to concede any points. I live here...

[Conway]

[Distance_Guru]

Dan my point about the setting up for failure stuff is that seems to come up as an irratant every time there is a diagreement around here, particularly when that disagreement is on racing stradgey or training methods. And as for being stuborn I'm guilty as charged. The reason for my stuborness on this particular issue is that I'm always angred when someone advises others to ignore a potentially beneficail resource.

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

I wouldn't discourage people from reading runners world (I even occasionally get a copy of the shoe review issues). I would discourage them from taking it as a be all end all of information on the sport. Which is the entire point of this debate. I am saying that intentionally ignoring any potential resource is foolish. To ignore a source of information that comes as highly recommended by as many of the top coaches, as physiology is really foolish.

As for your statement about lactate threshold I think that you can see it's effects without lab study. But without research by exercise scientists in labs we would have no real idea how or why the lactate threshold is significant and our notions on how best to train it would be based purely on anecdotal evidence.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

I'm sure DG will just love to see this topic rehashed...

I was watching a hidden featurette on the Usual Suspects SE DVD (some of the best special features I've seen on any movie) this evening, and it had some interesting comments from the film's composer. He talked about Usual Suspects being his first "real" movie and not having much confidence in his composing abilities at that time. He listened to a lot of other scores and music and was heavily influenced by certain things here and there (which apparently is a controversial topic with a lot of temporary film scores that end up not being temporary because the execs screen that version for the test audiences, but I digress). On later films, to paraphrase, "I had developed enough confidence and belief in my own capabilities that I just created scores without listening to other stuff. I hate to say it, but I don't listen to CDs anymore and don't really know what all's out there; strange how it happens when your hobby blends into your business -- but I was able to create stuff that was original." Hmm, that's paraphrased a bit more than I would like. I might have to go back and watch it again, trying to dictate...

The point is, that illustrates professionally one of my underlying concerns with this belief in the US distance community that if you aren't currently reading (and presumably learning, but most people typically only read that which they believe ahead of time they'll agree with) you're falling behind. I see it as just the opposite. If you are constantly studying the work of others, you're never fully developing your own capabilities.

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

One question, how many CD's did you listen too before you started making CD's without referencing someone elses? Generally no one would make a CD without having heard one. And generally when you talk to the people that are currently making the best CD's they've listened to a ton of other peoples.

I don't read as many books on running as I did say three or four years ago and I read them now primarily as a refresher. Because I know what's in most of them. I know what they have that I like and what I don't. But more over I make it a point to re-read not just the parts I liked but the parts that I didn't like, to ask myself why I didn't like it or why it wouldn't work (either at all or in my system). I'm not taking what Coe or Ray or Vigil or Bowerman or Lydiard or Martin or Newton wrote and use that strait from the book but I take what they said, weigh it against what I know and see if they are compatable and how it would work in my system.

I will also say that you should only use a program out of a book as a last resort. My very first coaching job I was still in college and I volunteered to be the distance coach at a local high school. I guess you could say at the time I knew all the parts that go into training a distance runner, I just didn't know how to put them together. Anyway long story short The Daniel's Running Formula had just come out to rave reveiws and it contained pretty much a step by step periodized training program. Since I had just jumped into coaching with no plan I decided to just do what the book said and use that for training my runners. I found out that the program in the book and the way I thought worked best didn't match. Since then I've read a lot of books and learned a lot of things and I feel that I have my own system that is influenced by many coaches, authors, speekers, and teachers. And it works for me and for the athletes I train. I still stay in touch with those sources because, there is a lot of info out there on running and how best to prepare athletes to run fast. And quite honestly I can't remeber every good thing that I read or hear. And reading is a good way of preventing me from forgeting something I know. Also I am always trying knew things, not a total change, just a little tweek hear, a little more of this, a little less of that. A wise person once said some coaches coach for ten years and some coaches coach the same year ten times. (I'm not accusing anyone hear of doing that by the way). If I don't read, especially as I'm formulating my plan, then I tend to get into a rut and just do the basics of my system with out touching on the nuances that make the system balanced and varied.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

I think we're on the same page, or at least reading from the same book (pardon the pun).

Let me see if I can't lay out what I think are the key points that we're both trying to make and see if that gets us anywhere

I think it's important to read (or study in another way) fairly regularyly in order to improve your knowledge base which in turn leads to better coaching.

You are opposed to using someone elses system instead of developing your own (something I agree with). Which is why you aren't a big fan of reading training manuals (? at least I think that is more or less your point)

I also sense a little bit of backlash against the many and loud voices demanding that you read every book ever written on training. Which I can't say I blame you for even though I am one of those voices.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Yep, we're pretty much in agreement. Just two different roads to travel to get to [hopefully] the same destination...

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

[Dan]

Someone bookmark this thread!!!

Dan

[Hammer]

Dan- What I don't understand is how does a person learn about the systems and parts of the human body by just coaching? If you do not read how can you learn about phisiology and injuries?

Sure you can talk to people but who are you talking to? Do you have the luxury of a Sports DR. on your staff? because @ my HS we don't.

I create my own distance programs. They have been influenced by the books I have read. But what I have taken (mostly) are the different ideas about periodization. And I never really had a good idea about Periodization untill I read Bompa.

I have to deal with injuries everyday. Most of the injuries I have to deal with I have never suffered through. I use an injury reference book (almost every week). I'm sure even some doctors use reference books to help diagnose injuries. How does someone (who is not trained) diagnose injuries without reading??

I have learned alot from talking to others and observation. I have also learned a lot from books. I believe that they are all important and that by coaching without using one of those systems of learning puts a coach at a disatvantage. I would love to coach vs. the coach that will say "I have never and will never read to help my coaching."