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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what type of training do you do that's not speed work? The training you call "worthless"? And you're supposed to run very light on the day before your meet. I don't exactly call it tapering, but it helps your body recover more to feel stronger the next day. I consider speed work to be fast workouts. 1000s, 800s, 1200s, are not speed work distances, just in case you do them. You don't train your speed oftenly, but once a week is good enough, not 4 times the whole year...3 meets a week is weird too. That's messed up, I mean how will you get better? Even Haile mentioned that he tries to stay away from a lot of races so he can do extraordinary on a few with more training. I need to know one thing though, what were your progressions to 5:10? How long from 6:00-5:30, etc. What was your beginning mile time during track and how long did it take you to progress from several mile times to get to a 5:10? A 5:10 is easy to achieve, it should take, meh, almost 3 months from 6:05-6:00 to be exact.

I don't believe in your 800m time, I know you can run it in under 2:10. First visualize running 600m as your running 400m, once you get past 600m in the race, you only got 200m to go. Start out faster in the 800 and keep it, don't slow down at all. This is the riskiest event to get boxed in because you start out fast. You will be hit with some huge waves of pain towards the end and it will last about 4 seconds just move those legs no matter what. You'll be amazed how you're already on your second lap, run that one as if you were running a 400m. When you race, always, always start from like lane 5 or 6 and cut across at the curve into 1 or 2 to avoid getting boxed in+spiked, don't be afraid to elbow past runners at the start.
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran the mile in 5:40 about three weeks ago and then my coach refused to let me run the mile again until two days ago. I had to score in the 400 at most meets and its too close to the mile to get ready for it. So i went from a 5:40 mile to a 5:10 mile in only two races and im planning on breaking 5 in 3 weeks at counties and sections. My 800 time is total bull, i ran it once over a month ago, i know i could go way lower then my current 2:20 but i havent had the chance to run it and i dont really want to, id rather run the mile and the 400. But now do you see wat im talking about how my coach is a total joke?
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at it this way, you've drastically improved no? So quit whining! Wink I don't see any issues in the training your coach prescribes you.
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•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know about a day before the race; however, there is some scientific evidence that running a couple or a few 100m to 200m strides in the early mourning before the race does help to run faster.
I do have a very tiny issue with this approach and it is not that it only works for distances between a mile and a marathon (as far as 'they' know).
It is that it may deprive you of a top--end speed over let say the final 400 meters (crica quarter--a--mile).
In short, in very few races, it may be a negative factor.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's more psychological because you're basically "rehearsing" the proper form and movement in running. So if you've tapered for a couple of days before the race, I agree with doing some strides in the morning may have a slight benefit instead of getting caught off guard by all of a sudden thinking to yourself that "These strides seem so hard, I feel so slow" during the warm-up right before the race.
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•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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AM_Runner
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve your I think your training has gotten you to a point and you have gotten to increae mileage in a safe way. Remember this is your first season doing distance type work. I actually lik ethe fact that you have been continuing the work you have done in the 400 as well I think it will bode well in the future for you.... All things take time especially in distance running I feel that some 400 type workouts at task pace will help you as well possibly even out to 500m as well now. You are feeling it out - now that you have had a few workouts and if you feel that you can properly guage your effort then sure get out there and lead a few - but not to the detriment of a workout.
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, i know what your talking about. Last week, was a hard week, monday i did a dirty dozen (12 400s at 72 and below, most of them way below) and i got in about 55 miles in 5 days taking out the two meets i had. Now at the start of this week, i ran 8 miles then did 8 200s (not sure of the pace as both me and my friend forgot our watches) and that was yesterday, And today there was no practice so i got in 8 mile and a 5 mile run. Those 200s i ran felt extremely good especially the last one which i think was around 25-26. I feel really good for my mile race coming up this weekend at counties.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell me more about your winter running. Track started in spring, but did you systematically increase your mileage dedicatedly over winter? By that I mean if you were realistic as you were going up to 60. Some people don't have a clue about increasing mileage and one week they add 2 miles and the next week they add 5 miles...You said that you will build up your mileage over summer. If you do that, then you're done for the year as far as developing your base. You'll have to continue with doing steady/tempo runs during the winter. Don't get into doing really fast workouts because you'll peak right when track starts. Once you finish your base, the next step is to develop the aerobic power. Your easy pace won't drop much throughout your base period, but it will still slightly drop. That's why there's a test called the MAF test where you run a few miles aerobically and compare the results to the paces before after a sufficient time spent in base training. What really decreases your easy pace and makes you run much faster when you build your base the next year, are the workouts you will do right after you complete your base training this year. Once you finish that, you will do more quality training such as tempo runs to develop aerobic power. Then you start XC in fall where you'll still be doing quality training, and over the winter you'll have to keep running quality miles (with some easy miles of course). Then track starts and you can develop all the pure lactic work and speed you need for sharpening your times and helping you break PRs.
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My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My winter training wasnt really what you could call training. I did sprinting during winter track and the workouts were terrible. I ran on my own on the weekends, some longer runs like 6 mayb 8 miles. But my winter training wasnt really anything, my biggest week was something like 40 miles and that was when i didnt have any prac.
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like things are progressing and looks like some good quality. Good luck at counties! Be patient it will all come together - it is a long process I know.

how many races do you have beyond Counties?
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just two, sections and then state quals.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssteve235 wrote:
My winter training wasnt really what you could call training. I did sprinting during winter track and the workouts were terrible. I ran on my own on the weekends, some longer runs like 6 mayb 8 miles. But my winter training wasnt really anything, my biggest week was something like 40 miles and that was when i didnt have any prac.


Remember, most of your gains in track came from speed. There's a bunch of runners that get their mile time under 5:10 from a 6:00 in the beginning but they lack endurance. If a sub 4:30 miler can't break 10:00 in the 2 mile then something is wrong. That's the thing that I think about the most because so many kids decide to try out track and they have to go through these gut busting workouts without a base or any endurance developed. You want to be like those guys such as Webb, Fernandez, and others who can run under 4:10 at the end of high school. Endurance plays a huge role in speed. Most coaches these days for example make their runners do drills involving high knees which is a big mistake. Only sprinters should raise their knees up high. However, that drill is applied to distance runners because it's what people see when a runner runs. By just looking at the distance runner raising his/or her knees, it's easy to assume that doing drills designed for that area would create a longer stride for the distance runner.

Here is another thing, some coaches are insane. They train 5:00 milers to run sub 65 second 400s and there are other runners who don't even have to train that fast and they can still run faster in the mile. If you have endurance, it will make speed training feel easy, make you faster in the mile and greater distances that you don't even compete in.
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•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright guys here we are, last meet of the season...if i run better then 4:58 im officially the number 1 runner in my school for next year...that speaks more to the quality or lack of in my school but still its something... Three hard months of training and it all comes down to one race...
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with that goal. It's a realistic goal but running is very unpredictable. It could be your body feeling slow during a race, or your pacers feeling slow. Make it your own race. Balls to the wall, don't think about how exhausted you are. Let me ask you something. If a tiger was chasing you, would you be worried about the pain and how tired you are? Smile when you get to the end, try to get noticed, be unique. The biggest quality a runner can have in racing is the ability to just get out of the dirt and go for it at the very end. You're nearing the end and you're staring at some cloud or one of your feet, shake it off and keep your eyes on the finish line. It happens to me too. The process at running at such a high intensity gives me a low mood and when I get towards the end, I see this vision of myself climbing out of the "hole" and it's like my brain "clicks". Show off as much as you can but do it properly. What I mean is to not go out like a maniac and cross the finish line as if you were a few months old. Kick like this guy at the end: http://au.truveo.com/1977-world-cup-1500m-steve-ovett/id/568019138
Were you impressed? Put yourself in the crowd's shoes.

However, there is one thing you should remember, even if you will be the best runner at your school next year, the important thing to note is how much faster you will be next season. 15 seconds faster than 4:58 is not good enough. If Webb got from a 4:24 to a 4:08 in a year (which most people say it gets incredibly hard to drop even a few seconds when you get really fast) then you can do it too. I'm not a huge supporter of genetics, it's the way you train that matters more. The biggest issue of all is endurance. You have absoluptely no problem with running the paces for your tempos, intervals, and VO2 max sessions. In fact, it is crazy what paces high school students train at these days during track. For example, a 5:10 miler may be prescribed 400s at 64 second pace and even 10x50m sprints. Another example is that there is a 4:27 miler who still hasn't broken 10 minutes for a 2 mile run. The thing that people ignore the most is running slow. This is why you have sub 4:30 milers doing their warm-ups/cool-downs/maintenence runs with the 5:30 milers. You should not be running at 8:00 or 8:30 pace. Your pace must be much faster than that. I do understand however that you can't run faster than that or else it won't feel easy and that's because you have an underdeveloped aerobic engine. Most runners do their runs right in between aerobic and anaerobic. Think about it for a while. You get the maximum benefits in VO2, speed, lactic tolerance, when you train mostly at that intensity. It's the same thing with improving your endurance. Endurance is not just how long you can run, it's also how much more distance you can cover within the same amount of time. 8:00-8:30 pace for you is basically a dangle between aerobic and anaerobic. You're not getting much better from either. When you start to do all of those hard sessions again, your mile PR will get stuck and it will take more balls to run faster. Endurance is not only a requirement for running longer distances, it's also a requirement for getting better at running the mile. All of your systems that are trained from the hard sessions depend on your aerobic level to decide how fast you can run the mile. 8:00-8:30 pace does seem easy for you, I won't deny you there, but it's not easy enough theoretically. Here is what happens, if I give you a heart rate monitor and you start to run at your 8:00-8:30 easy pace, your HR will be at about 85% of your max. Look at any heart rate zone chart and you will see that the pure aerobic range is always 70-80%. Some say 65 to 79, but 70-80% is the main range. 80-90% is your anaerobic range. The anaerobic system depends more on carbohydrates for fuel. All you have been doing now is training your body to be more efficient at using carbohydrates. You need to become more efficient at using fat for fuel. Have you ever thought in your life how elite athletes can run at an easy pace of 5:40?

I have a polar heart rate monitor and after every run, it tells me my fat percentage. If I'm running at sub 5 mile pace, my fat will be around 15%. If I run at 5:55 mile pace, my fat percentage is at around 50%. Your heart rate zones depend on your maximum heart rate because they are based on percentages taken from your max heart rate. You're max heart rate is pretty close to mine, we are not built that differently. Mine is 201 which means that my aerobic zone is from 140-160 bpm. Your max would be around 202, 199, etc. The catch is this: if you strap on a heart rate monitor and run at 70-80% of your max heart rate, don't be surprised that you'll be running at 10:00+ mile pace. I can run at 5:55 in that range because I trained from that range. Your 8:00-8:30 pace is probably at about 170-180 bpm which is way too much above the aerobic zone. The trick is to run in that 70-80% zone until you can run 8:00-8:30 pace in that zone only. Next time when you would run normal, you would be running at 7:00 pace. However, you don't want to do that. You always want to be in that in that 70-80% range and let the seconds drop from there. We are biologically limited to reach about 5:40 pace within that range. There is no need to worry though. 10:00+ pace seems very slow but that's because you are in your very first stage of building up your endurance. Like running from a 7:00-5:00 mile in just a couple of months, the same thing goes for running from 10:00 pace-sub 7:00 pace. Everything goes fast at first. The only problem with this type of training is that such a slow pace scares most athletes. Most will believe that they are running junk miles, but that's not true at all. You are calling on your fat reserves for fuel a lot more and you become more efficient at using fat for fuel. Your 8:00-8:30 pace right now represents Haile's marathon pace of 4:40, and your 10:00 pace represents his 5:40 pace. If you run all of your miles in that aerobic zone this summer, you're heart rate will stay the same when you'll be running at 7:30 pace. When you decide to run in that 170-180 bpm range which is equivalent to you running 8:00-8:30 pace right now, you'll be running at around 6:40 mile pace. See, when you start from the bottom like this, your faster paces are replaced by even faster paces along the HR zones.

http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/triathlon-training/aerobic-base-training-going-slower-to-get-faster-001091.php

Read that very last paragraph carefully.
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My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah its a very reasonable goal, the last mile i ran was about 3 weeks ago and ive had alot of good workouts since then. i feel so much stronger then i did a month ago. My goal is to not jsut run better then 4:58 but to totally demolish that time, my goal is a 4:50. I know what you mean about how you feel at the end of a race, i usually have a pretty good kick for the end. Im planning on working up a good base during the summer. alot of slow easy miles. Right now my easy pace is around 7:50-8:00. Im one of the few kids on the team who actually built up the right way. I worked up my endurance for a long time before begining any track/speed workouts. And this summer and next season wont be any different. After my race tomorrow, i have a 10k planned for next weekend so next week im just doing some light running and then after the 10k im taking about a week off to rest my body and my mind. Im totally spent mentally, my body has stood up way better then i though it would. After that week off im going to start up my base training. Ill have about 7 weeks to build up a bae before xc starts. The begining of xc is usually alot of long stuff/tempo runs. We dont start any speed work until about 2 weeks into the season. So ill have about 9 weeks to build up a base for the mile for next year.
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