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Dan · Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 12:28 pm Post subject:

I'm not saying it's right, just that many people instinctively do it. And I don't necessarily mean chaning the mark. A lot of the time it's just a matter of anticipating them hitting the mark before actually seeing it, or going when the back leg crosses instead of the front leg, or mixing up the audible "Go!" command with that of another team... There are a lot of things that can go wrong for a team that has practiced together very little, which is likely to be the case for the forseeable future with US championship squads.

Dan

Conway · Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 12:37 pm Post subject:

But that is more a matter of discipline than anything else ... One reason why Tim has had problems in international relays and why Eastern boc countries have done so well at passing the baton .....
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Conway
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Dan · Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:54 pm Post subject:

I think we're in agreement there. The more important question is how to develop that sort of discipline. Prior relay running experience is obviously one component, but I think an equally large one, if not bigger, is familiarity with the people you're running with. For most people, that takes time to develop.

Dan

Distance_Guru · Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 7:19 pm Post subject:

Dan · Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:03 pm Post subject:

That's exactly my point. The faster you go, the smaller the margin of error, and the smaller the likelihood any given person has practiced wtih people at that speed. It takes a lot of reptition to get that timing, and I don't see the relay being important enough to US sprint stars who are chasing individual medals to devote that sort of practice time.

Dan

Conway · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:24 am Post subject:

I agree with everything except the part about the likihood of these guys running with anyone as fast before ... Nearly all have attended major university programs (Mo being the exception) ... So have run with quality speed on relays ... And if you notice, most of our relay personnel since say '84 have also come from the major sprint camps (at least half of each team) ... So these guys have also had experience with similar speed ...

And when I say similar speed, what you are looking at is get away speed and finishing speed - not top end speed .. And when you look at those two variables, typically if you are in the 10.20 range thoe speeds are going to be quite comparable ...
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Dan · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:58 am Post subject:

Quality collegiate teammates, yes, but that means 10.3 type guys usually, not 9.9 types. You may have a point about acceleration and finishing speed differing less than top end speed among relatively similar athletes; I'm not really sure...

Dan

Conway · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:23 am Post subject:

Well if you look at your typical 100 meter race where you have say a differential of 9.95 for first and 10.30 for last what you will usually see is majoar separation taking place during the transition stage of the race ... A bit during the acceleration ... But primarily during the trasition to top end speed ... Little happens at the end ... And in the relay what we are dealing with as far as hand offs is get-a-way speed and finishing speed ... Wink

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Conway
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Justin · Varsity Joined: 08 Oct 2001 Posts: 312 Location: London

I'd say 90% of all the 4x1 slip-ups I've seen were caused by the outgoing runner going off at the wrong moment and in 90% of those they go too early, leaving the tiring incoming runner behind. Result - drastic slowing to stay in the box, fumbled batons, dq'd.

I agree with Conway that the difference between an incoming runner with a 9.95 best and a 10.25 best is, while noticeable, not drastic enough to make much difference at the point of changeover. This is especially true of the 1st and 3rd changes, where the (tiring, slowing) incoming athlete has just run a bend and is not going as fast as they can (no matter what HSI claim about Jon Drummond).

Experience does count...often a young or inexperienced runner goes off too early - I used to run 4th leg and the temptation to go early is unbelievably difficult to resist. The incoming guy always looks like he's going faster than he is - in fact, the outgoing runner is up to the speed of the incoming one within 10m. And it's better to go too late than too early - at least the incoming guy can adjust (ie slow down). Not good, but you'll get the baton round.

A bigger problem for the US and UK is invariably egos - who runs what leg, who runs the heats etc. This has been the downfall of more US and UK teams than any other issue.

Justin

Conway · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 10:28 am Post subject:

Egos and camps (as in what camp do you belong too) have been the biggest problem for US squads ... Not wanting to work with guys you don't regularly train with became a big deal with SMTC and was "passed on" to HSI !!!

Given that everything goes well for the top athletes next year, the US would be looking at a squad containing both Greene and Montgomery ... A 9.78 and a 9.79 ... Current WR holder ... 3 time World gold medallist and Olympic medallist ... Question: Who anchors ???? Question #2: What do you do with the one that doesn't get the anchor spot ??? NOw for my money Greene anchors ... He has the experience and doesn't rattle ... Tim's experiences have been mixed and he was involved in the last major botch by a US foursome ...

Britain will be looking at something similar with Chambers and MLF ... If both are running around say 9.95 prior to the games who anchors - since that is what both have experience in doing ??? And what do you do with the other one ....

In 1972 the US had Hart and Robinson who had both run 9.9 at the Trials ... Hart anchored and Robinson didn't run the relay at all !!! No good on the turn and not a good stick man !!!! US substituted Larry Blakc from the 200 ... He ran lead off and the team ran 38.19 to set the then WR !!!
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Conway
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Dan · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:44 am Post subject:

Tough questions. Going by experience, it seems Tim on 2nd and Maurice on anchor is the way to go, but I'm not sure how happy Tim will be with that arrangement... Also Tim's mental makeup seems questionable enough that it might be wise to limit him to only one handoff, and his start isn't consistently strong enough to make that leg 1...

Dan

Conway · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:27 pm Post subject:

Exactly !!! Each on their game, MO is just more solid ... I'm not sure I put Tim on the relay tell you the truth ... Primarily because of the inconsistency ...

Here is athe gorup I would put out there if i were coach ...

1st leg - Jon Drummond - still going sub 10
2nd leg - Justin Gatlin - Experience on this leg .. No ego to worry about and superb stretch sprinter ...
3rd leg - Has developed a good turn running the 200 and is a demon in the relay
4th leg - Mo Greene .... presently none better ...

And I say that regardless of the finishes at the Trials - as long as those individuals are healthy and running well ... Of course there will be much politicing ... And I'm not sure any coaches out there have the cahones to just make a decision and stick with it .... Rolling Eyes

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Distance_Guru · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:55 pm Post subject:

Conway · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:48 pm Post subject:

Distance_Guru · Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:16 pm Post subject:

Nice points all but you still didn't say who your third leg would be... Wink

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