Run-Down Forums Forum Index Run-Down Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch
 
Run-Down Forums Forum Index
Sprint Central
The 200 in 2003
Post new topic   Reply to topic

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Sprint Central
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion has admittedly veered slightly off the original topic, but that's what makes it fun. Smile

Quote:
Thus, while we can praise the likes of Greene for doing so much more than just run, we should not then turn around and criticise Kenteris for not doing so.

I disagree. Athletes choose to participate in a profession where their pay is directly tied to their visibility and openness to criticism, warranted or not. Those who can't handle that go the way of Marie Jose Perec... If I were in Kenteris' shoes, I see no reason why I would not do whatever I could to dispell such criticisms, so long as that does not interfere with my objectives. Since he apparently does not choose to do so, then there can be no grounds for objecting to criticism, no?

Quote:
any athlete would agree to never winning a single race all year on the circuit if instead they could take champs gold.

That statement implies that participating in races prior to the championships in some way hurts an athlete's chances of winning gold, which as I've tried to explain above, and as Conway has given further examples of, there does not appear to be any evidence that this theoretical relationship holds true. I see this as rather similar to the 100m thread where Conway posed a theory about the physical strain and lasting effects of WR level 100m performances and you provided a great deal of evidence to the contrary... Wink

I don't think anyone is arguing that most athletes would trade championship gold for circuit victories, but that really has nothing to do with the issue being discussed (until proven otherwise, which I dare say is impossible to prove). The issue is how competing so sparingly can produce championship caliber results, which indirectly comes back to the heart of the thread.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
However, we can not ever EXPECT any athlete to do any more than run for themselves. Thus, while we can praise the likes of Greene for doing so much more than just run, we should not then turn around and criticise Kenteris for not doing so. Justin


But that runs counter to the argument that he (and Thanou) runs for Greece ... That in so doing that makes him a national hero ... And therefore he doesn't need the circuit becasue Greece takes care of his needs !!!!

Justin wrote:
Clearly, the sport exists beyond championships. It is big business and the races are keenly fought. Of course Zurich is important . All the GPs are are because athletes are competitive. However, they are trivial compared to championships in the eyes of the athletes. By that I mean that any athlete would agree to never winning a single race all year on the circuit if instead they could take champs gold. Justin


Big business ?? Absolutely ... That is what Moses, Lewis, and SMTC fought for ... Athletes getting their proper cut of the pie ... Not just running for "glory" but to earn a living ... But even greater than that is the reputation ... Rankings ... Because rankings beget one's place on the "scale" and one's place on the scale determines how much one gets paid ... Running the circuit is VERY important ... But even beyond that there is the issue of personal pride ... As big as the Games or Worlds are there are always people missing ... Lots of people ... And few want to be considered a "hollow" champion ... Often athletes go looking for each other to see who is truly the "best" ... Lewis was missing in 92 ... And the circuit was the place where #1 was settled ... MJ missed the 400 in 92 and failed over 200 at Barcelona ... He went a huntin afterwards !!! 96 found two new sprint record holders over 100 & 200 ... And a competition was contrived to see who was truly best !!! Ashford and Gohr used Zurich to determine who the #1 female sprinter was !!! And while Chambers Euro Champs win was important, it was his circuit victories which made his season and confirmed him as a new star in the event ....

Justin wrote:
Looking at the season ahead there are only ever a handful of races which really matter - qualifying for the champs and running at the champs. For an athlete like Dwain Chambers with eyes on the world prize, the EC nonetheless remained his main goal of the year. Of course he desparately wants to win everywhere, all the time. But he wants to look back on the season and see that he won when it mattered most. Justin


Try telling Dwain that Oslo didn't matter ... Or Sheffield ... That none of his Euro circuit wins over Greene and Montgomery were unimportant ... Quite frankly his Euro Championship may have been his least most important win given as the major players were not in attendance ...

Conway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And just as I was thinking about Bailey last night I've been thinkin about Boldon tonight ... Everyone talks about Ato as if all he has done is run some fast times ... But over 200 he has 2 Olympic bronzes and a World gold ... Over 100 he has an Olympic silver, an Olympic bronze, and a World bronze ... So I dare say that he need trade places with Kenteris ...

Conway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny how easy it is to overlook Ato's hardware despite the knowledge he's run fast and gotten 2nd or 3rd in nearly every race he's run, OG and WC included...

I liken him to Regina Jacobs a bit -- not likely to win the big one, but you can bet it'll take a fast time to win and be pretty exciting in the process!

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Justin
Varsity
Varsity


Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conway, you are repeatedly attacking a point I have never made. Oslo, Paris, Zurich are important and were crucial to Chambers' season. I have never said they were trivial, so you don't need to keep refuting that suggestion. I HAVE said that they are of substantially LESS importance than championships.

Chambers this year had three targets: European Cup, Commonwealth Games and European Champs. Oslo, Zurich etc are not the focus of the season. His schedule of competiton is geared around running at peak form in the major championships. ALL races are important when you line up for them. But as soon as a GP race is over it's forgotten and the athletes move on to the next stop on the circuit. Come the champs, the athletes' mental states are affected by how each has performed during the season, the GP meets are used as form guides, etc etc. So of course GP races are important, in their own way.

AGAIN I make the point - offer ANY athlete (A) wins in Oslo, Zurich, Berlin and Brussels plus a WC silver OR (B) mid-field placings in all those races plus a WC gold and EVERY ONE would choose the WC win. That is my point - please read it again to be sure - that ALL athletes consider the champs to be MORE IMPORTANT than GP events and so should we. That DOES NOT mean that GP meets are UNIMPORTANT, just that they are LESS IMPORTANT.

Consider my examples - Makarov considers his season a failure despite winning EVERYWHERE because he failed to win the one championship around which his season was focused. El Guerrouj is consumed with the need to win Olympic Gold because he knows that his reputation will be forever tarnished if he fails again. Colin Jackson won absolutely everything...except the Olympics. All his Zurich wins are no consolation for this. He's unfulfilled. Boldon may have some silvers and bronzes but he has a reputation as a choker thanks to repeated failures in major events. All his fast times and GP wins just emphasise his glaring underachievement in major finals.

The champs are the centrepieces of the sport, the peaks everyone wants to climb. GP meets are waypoints; the bread and butter and great entertainment and important events in their own right but history remembers the championship winners, not the GP winners.

Justin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Justin
Varsity
Varsity


Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS I'm really amazed even to be having this discussion. To me the statement that it's champs that count in the end seems completely trite, so obvious is it. Perhaps we have come across a real cultural divide because I can promise you that EVERY SINGLE athlete in Europe is focused on the champs each year (actually not every one - Borzakhovskiy seems to have his own agenda). The entire season in Europe was built around the EC. All athletes with ambitions to compete for their country built their seasons around Munich.

Not one champion from Munich would willingly swap their gold for, say, a Golden league clean sweep. Next year the entire season is built around the WC. Every ounce of effort by the UK team, the athletes, doctors, coaches and administrators is focused on success at the WC. ALL other events are secondary, important only in so far as they contribute towards the higher goal (through practice, confidence, money etc etc).

Justin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin, did you miss my post at the top of the page? The argument, as presented, is not whether athletes would trade championship gold for GL victories -- I think we all agree that championship wins are at the top of every athlete's list, rather how a schedule like Kenteris' benefits his championship chances.

I'm sure we do have some cultural differences across the Atlantic, but I don't see that this should be placed into that category. The question seems quite simple to me... How does not participating in the circuit at all make someone more prepared for the championship??? The answer to the question should be the same regardless of nationality or competitive beliefs...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with Dan, my slant is slightly different ... I'm not (and haven't argued) that Championshpis are NOT important ... The list of European sprinters I named were of individuals who were Olympic/European/World/Commonwealth champions ... My point with that list was that ALL of them WERE champions and I am sure that in any given year the championship meet was the target of teh season !!! Yet they ALL, except for the 2 Greeks, were prominent on the circuit As WELL ... Including the Soviets and East Germans who, like the Greeks, were government supported !!!

I think you are right Justin in that to argue that Chamionships are the ultimate in the sport is trivial .. I think every athletes season starts with what Championships are on the calendar this year !!! Every athletes wnats Olympic and/or World gold .... No doubt about it ... In that regard I don't think Kenteris is different than any other athlete out there ... However, to say that that is ALL that matters to him, and other Europeans, is a misnomer as my European sprinters list well demonstrates ... What is also illustrates is that for whatever reason, the Greeks don't feel they can be successful at championships AND run on the circuit ... I don't see it as an American v European difference in point of view ... But rather a Greek v the rest of the world point of view ...

Conway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 1610
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Justin on this issue. I wouldn't give up my National Championship place finishes in the mid 80's for PR's in lesser meets. Also, there is a team element involved at National Championships and beyond.

There is no doubt that the money factor is higher in this country than elsewhere. So unless you have some means of support, doing well in the GP circuit can mean having training expenses for another Olympic cycle. Unless I am totally unaware of something, it seems that the 4 year cycle runs as one Olympic Games, two World Champs in the odd years, and one World Cup in the non-Olympic even year. So this becomes the one off year to build an income base with no majors besides the World Cup.

The interesting situation will be next year where the IAAF has doubled the monetary amounts for the GP/GL. A situation can be artificially created where the money ends up being the overiding criteria.

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree with Justin on this issue.

And I would have to say similarly avoiding (or neglecting to comment on) the points Conway and I have been raising that there's no evidence the European circuit and championship victories are mutually exclusive. If anything, Conway's list shows quite clearly that, with the exception of the 2 Greeks, championships are historically not won without being accompanied by circuit competition.

Everything else is a side issue that has absolutely no bearing on the question of how participating on the circuit affects one's championship chances... Since this discussion started with levels of champion-ism and what goes into that, I think it is a very relevant question.

Quote:
Also, there is a team element involved at National Championships and beyond.

A very minor one... I bet the HSI members would tell you they feel more a part of a team at a GL meet representing their club than they do at a WC meet representing their country with a bunch of relay members they've never trained with!

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the issue of the Team aspect of track and field, I think that was much more prevalent/important during the cold war years ... It was THE war ground of the super powers and those that would be ... Since then, moneoy has become the over riding factor ... While the Olympics stays pure and stays away from money, the World's pay quite handsomlyl !!!! Individualism is the name of the game - at least here in America ... I think nationaism is still prevalent in the smaller countries ... But it is easier when you national team consists of 10 members or less ...

Back on the topic of importance or non importance of various competitions, I don't think that the issue of whether or not "major events" are the goal of the athletes is at question ... What is is why one would choose only to compete in those singular events and not take part in the other events the sport has to offer ... And my response to the thought that it is becasue of the need to focus soley on the major so as to win it, was to counter with a list of European only sprinters - the cream of the crop - who have both won gold at the majors AND competred regularly on the circuit ... Illustrating the LACK of NEED for blinders on focus solely on the majors ... Which could in turn lead to the thought that perhaps those that need this type of focus may perhaps feel either the need to compete against others when perhaps they have had the opportunity to put themselves in a less than desireable position OR the need to focus on a single competition as they only have one good race in them a year and therefore feeling inferior wait to use it when it matters most ...

I do find it interesting however that in my own experiences, the experiences of people I know personally, and interviews with some ofo the most predominant sprinters in the world, that almost all feel the need for one or two tune up races prior to a major event to prepare and "sharpen" for the event ... As a matter of fact every hosting nation of the Olympics also host one or two local events leading up to and just before the Olympics for that particular purpose ...

Conway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/ap/20021119/ap-greece-drugs.html

I'll say only one thing ... it's easy enough to change, or at least address, perceptions about such things if you truly want to... :t-:

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow ... Personally I was hoping that it would not come to this ... But being the host of the next Olympics you would have ot expect that the IAAF (and others) would be looking to hold Greece as an example .. Especially given that there have been many scandles in high level competitions ... The Olympics are the ultimate world stage and all eyes are focused there for a two week period of time ... And given that there were already wispers out there, you would think they would be much more careful !!!!
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like we're in for a lot of mud slinging... The whole Greek-testing controversy goes back several years, so I'm not sure if that's a sign that the IAAF/IOC will continue to let it slide or if they have reached the boiling point and will pull another BJ out of the hat? Either way, I don't like the sound of it.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as I stated in my previous post they are facing the spectre of being the host of the Olympic games ... On top of that, their premier athletes are in events in which drug scandles have been the most prevalent - the sprints ... Add to that the pressure that has been on USATF over the past year and a half regarding supposed hidden positives related to Olympic medallists ... Add to that the fact that the Greek testing issue does go back several years ... and you have a potentially combustable situation ... And neither the Greeks nor anyone else should be surprised ... The sport is in mode of quasi trying to "clean" its image and that always starts with the athletes !!!!!!!!!!!
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Sprint Central All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group