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Timing in races
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue that determing the end of the season goal is somewhat of a crap shot. Most coaches and athletes set the goal in relation to some standard (qualifying mark, last years champion, ect.) But the goal may not be related to the athlete's physical possibilities (too fast or too slow). If it's too slow then it can result in a less than optimal performance. If it is too fast then the athlete will fail.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you missed my meaning of seasonal goal again. I wasn't talking about championship races (those are a crap shoot) I was refering more to the fast late season races where everyone is trying to hit a quailifying standard or improve their current seed for the upcoming championship race. There are usually about three of these in a college season and they are the racees I really like to have my athletes really focus on hitting their splits to acheive that seasonal goal time.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What DG is calling goal pace sounds like what I refer to as date pace, i.e. what you are prepared to race at today, as opposed to end of season.

See, I can slide in some technical terminology, too. Smile

Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo Dan. It's good to have you back from vacation. The board just wasn't the same without you. Conway had to be the voice of reason, I was on my best behavior as were MW and Paul. In other words Conway and I couldn't ... discuss... things with our usual fervor. And Hammer seemed to lose interest in the board with out your Yin to his Yang. In other words it was a little dull without you.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh well, I guess my work will never quite be done... Smile

Dan
- carry on!
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Anselm Murphy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, I noticed in the training pages that one thing you recommend is 4 X 800m at date pace. That would make it about 2:36 each 800 for me, or 1:18 a lap. I can't keep that up for 4 800s! At most about 2. The rest bit in the middle - am I meant to jog that or walk it?

It seems to me after trying that for a while that its too slow, and I'm not getting anywhere, so I've started trying to run each lap at the pace that I want to eventually run the 1500 in, so I aim for about 1:13 a lap, which should give me about a 4:35. Is it ok to be training like this at a faster pace than I know I can really run? Generally it starts to go downhill after the first lap e.g 1:11, 1:15, something like that. What I'm really working on right now is trying to get the laps as even as possible.
I'm thinking of going to the park soon and trying the 1500, but if its not in a race then I won't go as fast as I can will I? I think that I can improve at least a bit on 4:49, because my timing for the laps then was so bad, but without the added pressure of being in a race, I don't know how well I will do. Do you "real" runners ever just go out and try to beat your personal bests by yourself, or do you only ever do that in a race?
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are a lot of coaches out there that use pace-based systems incorrectly. I am not saying that DG is one of them. I do think it is helpful to look at some of the traps.

If a team or group of individuals are working toward a qualifying mark in a certain event then the program can become somewhat general. For some of the runners the qualifying mark may be reachable and for others it may not be attainable this year. For those runners the workouts can become discouraging and my lead to that runner's performance declining. In this case the declining performance is the fault of the coach. If the coach sets goals for an individual that are unatainable; that is irresponsible.

Now if each individual has his or her own goal and it is within their reach then pace-based systems are a good way to go. But I can't condone setting up people to fail.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hammer wrote:
But I can't condone setting up people to fail.


I think that is pretty much a universal feeling amoung coaches. I have never meet a coach I respected that set unattainable goals for his athletes or who lied to them and tried to convence them that they could do things that they were not capable of. A coaches job is to get an athlete to acheive the highest level of performance that they are capable of. Does that mean that athletes should always acheive every goal a coach sets for them, no. If an athlete acheives every goal that a coach sets for them they are either an extaordianry athlete or their goals were to low . But they certainly should accomplish most of the goals that they or their coach set.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anselm Murphy wrote:
I noticed in the training pages that one thing you recommend is 4 X 800m at date pace. That would make it about 2:36 each 800 for me, or 1:18 a lap. I can't keep that up for 4 800s! At most about 2.

Generally, if you're unable to maintain that pace in the workout, you'll be unable to do so in a race. That's why it's intentionally tough. Wink

Quote:
The rest bit in the middle - am I meant to jog that or walk it?

Preferably a light jog, but walking is ok if needed.

Quote:
It seems to me after trying that for a while that its too slow, and I'm not getting anywhere

I'm confused... If it's too slow, why are you unable to maintain it?

Quote:
Is it ok to be training like this at a faster pace than I know I can really run?

No, as I'll explain in a moment...

Quote:
Generally it starts to go downhill after the first lap e.g 1:11, 1:15

What you are doing is training yourself for failure. Your body is becoming accustomed to dropping off the pace, which is not a good thing. As long as you keep reinforcing that pattern in training, it will be next to impossible to break out of in a race.

Always shoot for consistency in your intervals, with the last ones preferably the fastest.

Dan
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Anselm Murphy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a 4:49 1500m is roughly 1:18 per lap, with a 55sec last 300, which I have done. However, I could not keep up 1:18 per lap for 4 X 800. When I said it seems to slow, I meant running 1:18 laps seems to slow because I have already run a 1500 at that pace. So, I have been trying to train at a higher pace than I have previously run, so that I will improve.
Am I meant to be training at a pace I have already done? Because what I was trying to do is to run at the pace that I want to eventually run at.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, you haven't yet shown that you can consistently run that pace in practice, so how do you expect to dial it up a few notches in a race? Quite possibly, you ran over your head to have averaged 1:18 if that is too fast for you in workouts. Do you feel like you can duplicate the 4:49 most anytime out? If not, that would be a more reasonable goal to start with.

Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have to agree with Dan, first you want to work on consistancy. Workouts can be hard to run at any pace compaired to races because you don't have the competitive energy that you get with a race. But two things that I can't stress enough is to work on pacing in your workouts and to keep your rest short. The most common mistake I see runners make is that in their workouts they want to run their intervals to fast and then take to long on their rest. Everyone likes to run really fast and everyone enjoys plenty of rest (which makes it easier to run fast on your next interval). Running cotrolled splits for intervals with short rests isn't as much fun as flying and then fully recovering but, it will generate better results.
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