Run-Down Forums

[Micah Ward]

Hey guys, is anyone familar with Yasso 800's? I've read several articles and wondered if any of you have tried them or know any one who has. I would be interested in knowing how they worked.

They are designed for marathon training but I would be interesed in how beneficial they might be for 10K or even 5K training.

Of course, Poserunner will probably say my posture is more important.

[Dan]

What's a Yasso 800? I assume you're not referring to Arafat's half mile PR...

Dan

[Paul]

Micah, I'm familiar with them but have never tried them simply because 10 880's would be a massive undertaking for me, even if I was healthy. But why not throw a day of 880's into your workout if you think the leg is up to it?? Maybe 3-4 at 5K pace (4 min) to start with, and eventually get down to the 3:15 to 3:30 range. Rest interval according to the Yasso formula would be jogging the same time interval, but I would imagine you could be considerably under that, for the 1st couple of weeks would probably be under 2 minutes. I hope DG responds to your post since distance running (or coaching) is not my forte. Also, if you plan on doing these at the track, consider pacing off the stagger from the 7th or 8th lane so the curve portion won't be so tight. I have a specific 440 workout where I run in the 7th lane and then walk the stagger which takes about 30 sec.

Dan, Dan, Dan... I can see your loyal fans at Run-Down may have to initiate a hostile takeover bid for your training links portion of your website!!

Paul

[Dan]

Ah, now I've been enlightened... Thanks for the article, Paul.

Interesting theory, but I suspect it's not quite as accurate "down the line" as made to sound, as it seems to be geared toward a marathoner seeing what they can run 10x800 in, not a shorter distance runner seeing what they can run a marathon in. For me, it's probably off by a good 30 minutes, simply because I've trained extensively for the 800 and am not enough of an endurance athlete for that performance level to carry over to the marathon.

Also, it seems odd to treat that workout as a near staple of marathon training. It would appear to be more of a time trial indicator of fitness level that should be done every 3-4 weeks or so. No reason to be predicting your finish time each week, otherwise you might as well just go race...

Dan

[Paul]

I agree. I might not have too much of a problem doing the 800's in 4 minutes especially with anything approaching a 4 min jog inbetween, but for me to run a marathon in 4 hours would mean averaging 9:10 a mile... not something that is likely going to happen.

Paul

[Conway]

Wow ... I was like Dan ... I clicked on this link to see hwo Arafat trained ... Didn't know he was an 800 runner ... Guess he still isn't !!! ... That's what I like around here ... Leran something new every day !!!!

[Dan]

I guess us sprint neanderthals should go back to our respective holes...

Here's the link to the article Paul sent me:

http://www.runnersworld.com/home/0,1300,1-51-54-624,00.html

Dan

[Conway]

Either that or to the other side of the track every once in a while

[Distance_Guru]

I've heard of this theory. And from what a couple of friends of mine have told me it is actually quite accurate. A college teammate and good friend won the Duke City marathon two or three years ago and he said that this formula was with in 4 or 5 minutes of his time. Which is pretty darn accurate when your talking about a marathon. I think the one stipulation should be that this trick is only accurate if your training to run a marathon. As Dan mentioned earlier I get the feeling if you were training for a shorter race the results of this workout might be inaccurate.

On the other hand this is a pretty good VO2 max (aerobic capacity) workout, especially if your training for a 8-10k. When I was running in college the first hard workout of the year was always 10 x 800, usually in 2:30-2:40 with around 2 minutes rest.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Micah Ward]

The articles I've read on the Yasso's refer to them specifically for marathon training. However, I wonder if they could be adapted for shorter distances. For example, a 40:00 10K usually equates to @ 3:09 for a marathon depending on which prediction chart you use. So going by Yasso's formula, would 10X800 in 3:09 be a useful workout for training for that 40:00 10K? To a layman that seems to make sense.

But then again I may have too much time on my hands. So I guess I will get back to my in basket.

[Distance_Guru]

I with shorter distances there are all kinds of test type workouts that you can do. Although I can't think of any that come out as nicely as Yasso's 800's (3:00=3:00). And besides, I think the point of this type of workout is to find out where you are in a race that you can't run very often. When you are getting ready for a big 10k you can run a test 10k race two or three weeks before without any ill affects on your goal 10k. Where as if you are curious about your marathon time running a test marathon two or three weeks before your goal marathon would be a bad idea.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Micah Ward]

The articles I've seen don't seem to treat the Yasso's as a test workout, but rather as a conditioning workout. Doing five miles worth of 800s at faster than race pace would seem to be a heck of a workout to prepare for a marathon.

My question is, what kind of a workout would it be in preparing for a 10K or even a 5K? Let's say for example you run 4X800 at 30 seconds faster than race pace. That's 2 miles worth of running at faster than race pace to prepare for a 5K. Again, to a layman that sounds like a good workout.

It gets the legs used to fast turnover and it is training the body to hold that pace for a more extended time than the traditional 400 repeats. That I think is the key. Training the body to hold the fast pace for a long time.
Am I making sense?

[Paul]

Taking what Micah alluded to in his post, I have come to the conclusion that the Yasso 800's are simply race pace of the Purdy calculator 10K equivalent of the marathon time you hope to run. I crunched a few of these numbers and that's what it boils down to within 3-4 seconds. I have never seen it explained this way, but Purdy's Computerized Running Training Programs has been out for over 30 years so its possible he might have originated something along these lines in the 70's.

For example, lets take a person who runs close to a 2:40:00 marathon. The Purdy equivalent for 10K is 34:10. An 800 at 34:10 pace is 2:44.
I ran numbers from 2:10:00 marathon up to 3:00:00 in 10 minute increments and then up to 4:00:00 in 15 minute increments and there was no deviation.

Couple of observations come to mind that I will need help from the coaches (Micah, DG, Mike, Conway, Dan if he logs in while on vacation) to sort out.
1) If you are training for a marathon, then the 800's are much faster than race pace.
2) If you are training for a 10K, then 800 at 10K pace is less than 1/12 of the distance and you might not even spend much of that time at lactate threshold let alone V02 Max. Unless you were to greatly reduce the rest interval. The workout, strictly from the 10K point of view, almost reminds me of a mini Daniels' Cruise Interval workout.

DG, when you did the 10 x 800's in college, what was your 10K time at that time. 2:30 - 2:40 is a 32 minute 10K pace plus or minus 30 seconds. If you were capable of, say, a 35 minute 10K, then the 800 pace would be 2:48, so that workout of yours was much faster than 10K pace.

Does the key to this workout becomes the rest interval, so the heart rate does not drop too far off your lactate threshold??

Stripping away all the glitter from what has been written about the Yasso 800's, for a 3 hour marathoner, the workout, not counting warmup and warmdown, then becomes a "controlled" one hour fartlek run with a 3 minute "speed" component followed by a 3 minute jog, repeated 10 times.
Not a bad workout, but maybe not a test workout for a 10K???

Am I making sense here? Your thoughts appreciated!!

Paul

[Micah Ward]

I may be missing the intent of your point two. It seems like you are basing that on the assumption that the 800s would be run at the same pace for 10K training as for marathon training.

What I was proposing was 800s at faster than 10K pace if training for the 10K. For example, if your 10K pace is 7:00 a mile then the 800s could be run at 3:10 (I'm just pickiing 3:10 out of the air). The key though is that whether you train for a marathon, 10K or 5K; if you run the 800s at faster than race pace, then you should have an excellent workout that combines a faster than normal pace with the ability to hold onto that pace for longer distances.

[Distance_Guru]

Paul and MW, I'm impressed. You guys have both made some excellent points.

Paul to answer some of your questions, when I was running around 2:30 for the 800's I was about a low 32 to high 31 minute 10k runner, (it was during cross country season so it was hard to nail down what my track time for 10k was). That put the pace at faster than 10k but not as fast as 5k. Also the key to the workout (and really in my mind any interval workout) is the rest time. If you let the rest run much longer than the amount of time your running then your heart rate goes down and all your really doing is practicing running fast when your fresh, and in this case if the rest time is less than half of the time you spend running you'll crash and burn before the workout is over.

As far as pace and how it applies to races of different lengths it really isn't all that important. The reason for this is that (at least the way I use this workout) this workout is designed to improve your VO2 max. It's about physiology and working the system as oppossed to practicing running a certain pace. Now ideally you try to set your physiological workouts (LT, VO2 max, aerobic power) so that you are running near the speed at which you are going to be raceing. But this workout is a very good VO2 max workout and that is true whether your training to run a mile or a marathon.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn