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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:40 am    Post subject: Training in a New Way Reply with quote

This morning I thought I'd try something different. Went running with The Spark for about half an hour, then left him back at the castle.

Jogged over to the track and ran three 440s a bit faster than race pace. Followed this with 40 minutes of 200m intervals (a few seconds of jogging between each). Then I jogged 15 minutes home.

Felt like I had a workout, and it wasn't boring. Tomorrow I have a two hour continuous run through the hills scheduled. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity how fast are 440's at just a bit faster than race pace, for an Ultra marathoner?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:46 am    Post subject: Depends on the individual Reply with quote

Since marathons are run between 2:06:00 (or so) and 8:30:00, pace is according to the individual.

The way I estimate it is, pick a comfortable "floating" pace, that feels that you could maintain "forever," then go a bit faster.

Another way to figure it is to figure the even splits for your best 5K and beat that slightly.

I would guess that I was running the 440s at about 1:40. I wanted a pace faster than normal, but not a sprint, and would allow me to recover in just a few seconds.

Also, this was the first time in a while that I'd done any intervals. Next week, or the week after, I probably speed up about 5 seconds, and do 4 or 5, rather than 3.

As for the shorter intervals for 40 minutes - that will go up to an hour or better before long. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that workout, I've never been a big believer in lots of rest. Some famous coach (I forget who) used to say if you want to get fast you practice running not resting. I always liked that saying.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:52 am    Post subject: Running, Not Resting Reply with quote

Dear DG: Of course we're not sprinters, we're distance runners.

From my limited knowledge of sprint training, you're supposed to wait until "full recovery" before doing another interval.

In my case, when performing "intervals" to improve speed for distance, I want to keep my pulse, at least slightly, up into the aerobic training level, even during rest.

I haven't performed intervals on a regular bases, but when I do, and when I use a pulse rate monitor, I make sure my pulse stays above 120 during the short rest pause.

This doesn't leave much time for walking - when I'm in top shape, bpm can drop from a sustained 160 to 100 in little over a minute.

My favorite intervals are on a 200 yard (more or less) down hill trail. I can go like the wind (for me at least), and it doesn't destroy me.

Coming back to the start, I walk/jog, to keep pulse above 120. Mad Dog Mike [/url]www.training2run
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my pet peeves Confused when I'm reading a book on training is when the author says "at race pace" or "slightly faster than 5K pace" or "slightly slower than 10K pace". Or when he doesn't stipulate the race pace. I got a lot of info from the favorite workouts posts because many were very specific.
Now, having been around for 50+ years, I don't think that I have come up with anything unique, even if I haven't seen anything like it somewhere. I felt I was running my intervals too fast, so my solution is to run those intervals based on my best time for 4 times that interval. In other words, I will run 400's based on my mile time at the immediate present, 800's on my 2 mile time, 200's on my half mile time, 1200's on my 5K time, etc. This is my standard starting point with a standard rest, but I will go faster if I am taking a longer recovery, and I will go slower if I am taking less of a recovery. Have you seen anything to back this up, and how do you feel it fits in the scheme of things??

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:15 am    Post subject: Impossible to be Specific Reply with quote

Dear Paul: I'm sorry I "pet peeved" you when refering to "race pace"

I would assume that when an author is using the term, he is refering to the ability of the reader.

If I were a 3:00:00 marathoner/author and I wanted the reader to run intervals, slightly under race pace, would it be useful for me to tell them to run 440s at 1:40 (that marathon pace is about 1:43.05)?

What if they were a 4 hour, or slower, marathoner (like most people), their race pace would be 2:17.40 or slower. Their interval speed would be maybe 2:10, 2:15 or slower.

Your way of figuring interval speed is something like the way I do it myself (but you're more scientific / I'm more subjective). I run at the (sub-sprint) speed that will allow me to recover while I'm walking "from here to there."

One way I do this is to run the straights on the track, and part of the curve. I then walk the center of the curve, and begin running before the curve is finished. If I'm not recovered in time, I'm running too fast. Simple, huh! Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interval training can be very tricky espescially if you aren't running races on the track on a regular basis. As a coach I have the luxury of haveing my athletes racing on the track on a reguar basis, so did the authors of most of the highly scientific books out there. For you average Joe 5k that can be a problem. First off most of them don't run races on the track at all, and not all road races are created equal. So as much as I hate giving this advice, what often needs to be done is a little eyeballing. In other words, when you run tempo runs that are supposed to be at just slower than 10k race pace, (which I don't think works if you run a 10k slower than about 40 minutes..but that's another post all together) just get out there and run at a pace faster than you usually run but not as hard as your 5k race pace. For aerobic capacity intervals, which are supposed to be done in the 3k - 5k pace range for 2-8 minutes total duration, I think you're just about on with your intervals. But I'd have to see the number, rest time, running time, and progression to be absolutly sure. Although with the info you've given it sounds like you're in the ball park, so long as you're rests are right when compaired to the objective of the workout.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:28 am    Post subject: Objective of the work out Reply with quote

The objective of the track work out is to avoid having to run continuously on the trail, yet still have an excuse to put something down in my training log Very Happy .

I know I run faster on the track (for 220s, 440s and 880s) than I do on the trail, because my hamstrings and butt tell me so.

I definately don't sprint, but I do run fast enough to know I'm working at it (for a given distance), but I recover sufficiently in 15 to 20 seconds to do a repeat for that distance.

Naturally I run a bit slower as the length of the interval increases.

Why I actually do track intervals... Strange or not, without even trying, I can run a long race at a 30 second to one minute per mile pace *faster* than I can distance train.

This is due to excitement, competition, whatever: who knows.

I do the intervals to get my muscles used to stretching out. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Strange or not, without even trying, I can run a long race at a 30 second to one minute per mile pace *faster* than I can distance train.

That's a pretty large jump in pace. How long of a race and what distance in training are we talking about?

Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:07 pm    Post subject: Race and training distance Reply with quote

Marathon. 45 to 65 miles a week of training.

I don't believe I've ever exceeded 70 miles in a week, except an ultra- race week: Sun 10 mi; Mon 5; Tues 5; Wed 3; Thurs 2; Fri 0; Sat 0; Sun 71 miles.

During the peak of my running (age 40 - 50) I trained at an 8 min to 9 min pace. Eight minutes on the track, 8:30 on the trail, 8:30 to 9 minutes for the long Sunday run.

I raced the marathon at a 6:49 to 7:35 pace, depending on the year the race, how I felt, the weather. Now I run slower.

Ultra distance I do not run faster than training pace. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your answer may be hidden somewhere in all those numbers ... but what I meant is what is the training distance(s) that are always 30-60 seconds slower than [marathon] race pace? Is that true for the 2-5 mile days, also?

Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mad Dog!! I didn't mean for you to take offense at my pet peeves post because I certainly was not referring to you or anyone else on this site, either, for that matter. I also left out some crucial remarks. Since at the world class level there is only 2-3 sec difference in the 400m time, and even at novice level there is only 5 sec difference in 400m time (I am referring to 400m avg for 5K and 10K here), so for an author to say slightly faster than 10K or slightly slower than 5K means virtually the same thing. I feel these authors should be consistent with their writing.
I plead guilty to trying to quantify most things. I do that so that I can make some correlations between myself and someone much better. I think that comes from my Weightlifting background.
So my point was that I tried to develop some patterns that would work for me, and that would be still usable as I improved.
DG made a good point about standard threshold training not working if your 10K were slower than 40 min. That seems to agree with what I have discovered in my own running, since I would be hard pressed to avg 8 min miles in a 10K. When I put something like 2 miles in on the track, I need to be running sub 16 min for it to feel like a workout.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:14 am    Post subject: Not Peeved Reply with quote

The Mad Dawg doesn't take offense, he just puts on his studded leather collar, leaves the junk yard, and starts looking for action.

I agree that under 16 minutes for two miles feels like a good workout. I also agree, that at short distance, where times are so close, refering to just under or just over race pace does not convey much useful information.

In the longer distances, 10K for example, the times are tremendously diferent...from the middle of the pack to the last runners might be 45 minutes to well over an hour.

In the marathon, from the middle of the pack to the final runners, you're talking 4 hours to 5:30 (in some races, 8:30).

Since I write to and for distance runners, you can see that there is really no way I can state specific speeds. So I try to give subjective guidelines, or programs that somehow relate to previous acomplishments.

The only areas I can be at all specific are in training distances, rest periods, recovery time, pulse rate - things like that. Mad Dog Mike [/url]www.training2run.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:14 am    Post subject: Two Miles? Reply with quote

Dan,you gotta be kid'n. Me run two miles.

Here's my schedule for this week. It doesn't include warming up, jog/walks, intervals or stuff like that.

Sun 2:26:00; Mon -0-; Tues 1:10:00; Wed 1:51:00; Thu -0-; Fri 2:05:00
Sat (tomorrow) -0- Week total = 7:32 (hours).

Next week the total will be a bit over 8 hours...I'm going up about 6% a week, and will probably be at 10 hours before the end of July. Then I plan to switch back and forth between 9 hours and ten hours until the beginning of September. The Leon Marathon is Sept 22nd.

Except for the final 5 or six minutes of a training run, I'd say that all my runs - one hour to three hours are substantially slower than marathon pace.

However, even though they are, in the main, slower, the course is much tougher, and the altitude much higher. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com
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