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Dan
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Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the Body Glide recommendation. I don't have a problem with vaseline wearing off (usually just the opposite), but I also tend to keep my runs below 45 minutes. Smile

Yeah, Lydiard certainly had a dramatic effect on the sport, and like you, I'm not completely convinced it was a good one. Bowerman could also be considered in the same light, having promoted jogging and heel striking.

I've always considered kicking and surging to be basically the same thing, just honed through working on different energy systems in training. However, I can see the direction you're going with the distinction. Something to ponder...

Dan
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Conway
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Joined: 25 Aug 2001
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Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you look at it .. Lots of "surgers" are not good kickers .. And lots of kickers are not good surgers .. Difference (in my opinion) is that surging is speed in spurts with recovery periods built in (they just happen to occur during the race) .. Kicking is asustained sprint (from whatever point) done off a pace basically .. Two totally different things .. In order to beat ElG in Sydney, Ngeny had ot learn how to kick .. And he spent all of the Euro season figuring it out .. ElG doesn't surge, he sustains a kick .. Different than typical Kenyan philosophy .. But then what does a sprinter know about such things ??? We just come out the blocks and go right ???
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Micah Ward
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Location: Hot&humid, GA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went back to my training logs of 1982 when I ran a 3 mile cross country at 5:57 pace, 3.6 cc at 6:09 pace and a 1.5 mile at 5:23 pace. Not bad times for a 5'9" 170 pound distance runner. Those were my best times ever and they did not come off a heavy endurance base. I was only averaging about 17 miles a week on 3 or 4 runs per week. But every run was a quality run. No slow easy stuff. So maybe there is something to that idea of building speed and base at the same time.
Now...what do I do with a 45 year old 200 pound body?
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answer: YOu take off say 20 lbs ... Smile ... That's my goal anyway .. But it seems that all of those that have posted on this topic have basically had similar experience .. That building speed takes running fast ..

I would be curious to see a training diary of some of the top distance runners now .. Doesn't TFN have some recent training books on distance running ?? Would almost be worth purchasing to see what they say they do .. I would almost be willing to bet that thosee outside of the US have a fair aount of "speed work" incorporated into their training regimes !!!

Dan do you have Spivey's email address ??? I'll have to check .. I think I may .. Would be interesting to get a "professionals" view .. And he is about the most recently successful miler out their .. He's run 3:31.01 .. And had a fair amount of speed .. And ran decent tactics .. Is a possibility ..
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Dan
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Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely not all surgers are good kickers, and ditto for vice versa. But I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. I imagine ElG is one of the best surgers in the world. However, he just happens to be the best kicker (extended) in the world, so he plays to his strength for the safe win and fast time. I believe he would win more often than not in a relatively slow surgers race.

Everyone will probably be better in one area than the other, but that's true for anything. Two similarly talented endurance athletes might have drastically different times over the marathon and half marathon, but identical in the middle.

Quote:
Now...what do I do with a 45 year old 200 pound body?

Run even faster! Smile

What does the "cc" in "3.6 cc" represent? I'm scratching my head on that one...

Quote:
Dan do you have Spivey's email address ???

Yep, it's on my list. Smile In fact, here's a quote from him on the t-and-f list:

"Remember, training is a means to race fast . . . not the other way around."

I couldn't agree more.

Dan
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Conway
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Joined: 25 Aug 2001
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Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I consider Spivey to be America's best miler of the "Modern" (post Ryun) era .. Actually I th ink he as a better racer than Ryun .. Spivey had a sprinters thought pattern .. That gunslinger killer instinct .. He went out to try to win .. Not trying to avoid losing .. And there is a distinction .. Is why in my opinion the US is behind in everything above 400 meters Wink
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He went out to try to win .. Not trying to avoid losing .. And there is a distinction ..

That might just qualify for the understatement of the year award! That little distinction you refer to is what separates the winners from the losers more often than not, especially the bigger the meet (ElG; hint, hint).

Dan
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, the "cc" stands for cross country. Probably not the proper abbreviation.

OK Conway, I take the challenge...20 pounds to go. 202 this morning.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I thought you were popping a few cc's of adrenalin during the race. Wink

Dan
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Micah Ward
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Joined: 08 May 2000
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Location: Hot&humid, GA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never tried adrenaline during a race but I have tried beer after!!!

How about some more answers:

5- How many miles make a distance run? That is going to be very relative but 3 miles seems to be a reasonable threshhold. It is hard for me to call a mile or two mile race a distance race. But remember, I'm an ultra junkie so it is all relative.

7- Since I live in south Georgia even the "cool" part of the day can be 80 degrees with 80 plus humidity. To get through the summers I slow down and use that time for building endurance base. Drink lots of water and sports drinks. Also, eat a good balanced diet and you shouldn't have to worry too much about the mineral loss.

27- Concerning running with weights on the ankles. STOP DOING THAT NOW!!!!! It is unnatural and will cause you to run with a stride pattern that is not normal for you. This will lead to injuries. To make your legs stronger run hills and speed work. If you want even more than that go to a gym and lift.

Since I have opened the door about my weight I expect to suffer many snide comments about my balanced diet advice. Well, bring it on! My diet is very balanced...I eat everything! How much more balanced can you get?

Of course the amount might need some adjustment........
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice, all around. Smile

Only thing I would add is that running with ankle weights will likely lead to knee problems, probably more so than form issues. One area where they can be of benefit is for bounding and other drills, where an exagerration in the running/jumping motion is desirable for building strength and speed.

Dan
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Conway
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Joined: 25 Aug 2001
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Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to be careful with the ankle weights though .. My experience from watching many sprinters use them "back in the day" to help increase leg strength, is that they tend ot lead in a muscular imbalance that typically results in pulled hamstrings .. Quads tend to benefit more than hamstrings .. Eventually over powering the hams and - pop ..

That is one thing you have to be careful of when developing strength - maintaining balance .. Even when you look at the world's top sprinters that is why even though they appear to be so strong they are at the same time very fragile .. My favorite sprinter when I was growing up (Steve Williams) had a quote in Track and Field News (May or June of 74) that was both simple and profound "My greatest weakness is my strength" ...

the key grasshopper is balance !!!
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good quote, and very good points. I think most people will need to do a disproportionate amount of work on their hamstrings just to keep them in balance, as the quads get so much more work from most activities, and the hammies are tougher to strengthen in the first place.

Dan
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Micah Ward
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Location: Hot&humid, GA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a difference between sprint work and long slow distance. The LSD (long slow distance) actually strengthens the hams which makes it important for the distance guys to do quad strengthening exercises to keep everything in balance. I learned this the hard way after battling tendinitis in one knee. The doctor said the imbalance was enough to create wobble in the knee cap which caused the tendinitis. So after strengthening the quads the pain went away.
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Conway
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Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran cross country one season to help rehab a pulled hamstring .. Helped quite a bit .. And guess what .. Helped my quarter too .. Curse all that got me was two relays and two spritns every meet ... Smile
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