Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

In that case then I would say that the results of Ali SAidi Sief sort of say it all .. Not to implicate any group of people, but it IS rare for anyone to break up the Kenyans at anything over 800 ..

You would think that they would be #1 in just about every long distance event .. Although I do wonder about their competitive nature .. They make running seem more like art than competition .. Almost too relaxed .. Even when Ngeny went be ElG last year it was smoothly rather than explosively .. Wonder how they would do with some coaching on agressiveness ???

[Dan]

The Kenyans seem to have a bit of a sense of humor about their dominance. There is the example of Wilson Kipketer when asking if he ran 10 miles to and from school as a kid, "no, I lived really close to school. I walked slow." I'm not sure if the name Billy Harper means anything to the rest of you, but he dominated Oregon high school xc and track in the mid 90's, winning something like 11 state titles and running mid 8:20's as a freshman. I think he is Mike Boit's nephew. Met him a couple times, nice guy. Still in high school, junior year I believe, he ran in UO's big invite and placed 6th with the likes of Cullpepper and Goucher in the field (at least I'm pretty sure it was them; they were their top 2 that year, but I didn't really know who they were at the time). Anyway, the Oregonian ran an article about him at one point and asked him if he trains harder than his teammates. I could picture him smiling as he replied... to paraphrase, "most of my teammates work harder than me. I guess it [being faster] is just my ancestry." I guess it's sort of a white men can't jump thing -- the Kenyans know the rest of the world are in awe of them and they have fun with it. Billy had a rivalry with Rhy Rhenolds (who placed very highly at foot locker and was U of Portland's prize recruit) throughout high school and in one state meet when Billy was coming in injured, he kept slowing down on hills and challenging Rhy to pass him. Nice little mind game he established, since Billy was somewhat famous for sitting on people and putting 50m or so on them in the last 300m of an xc race... Rhy wouldn't pass, and Billy won as usual.

Wow, I have no idea what I started out talking about after that rambling! Something about how the Kenyans seem to be very serious about the sport in general, but not so serious about any one aspect that they can't see the humor and intrinsic beauty of it. I can sort of relate to that, I suppose, since I've never really been at a level where winning is a realistic goal. Still, that doesn't quite fit with the train hard, win easy side of things...

I also find it peculiar how heavy handed the KAA (Kenyan federation) is with their athletes. It seems in stark contrast to the personality of the athletes themselves. On the other hand, the Ethiopians seem enjoy things the most, yet their athletes seem to be among the fiercest competitors. I may need to think this over a bit more...

Dan

[Conway]

Wow .. I think I followed that .. .. I do think the Kenyans tend to have the most fun out on the track .. Whereas say the Moroccans and Algerians take it very seriously ..

But to Americanize it, the previous generations of Kenyans - Keino, Waigwa et al - were very serious about their running and were fierce competitors .. Whereas the current generation seems to have lost that .. Must as we deride the attitude towards training of the most recent generation of American distance runners vis a vis the likes of Pre and Ryun and Lindgren ..

The Kenyans do appear to be the most naturally talented of the distance runners and it is scary to t hink of what they might be capable with a killer instinct .. They could probably outpoint the US in major competitions on overall medal count as they have the ability to score in everything from 400 up on the track .. All they would need to do is develop a very field eventers ..

[Dan]

Does anyone know if the Kenyan elites of the 60's and 70's trained at home or abroad? It seems most of their top tier runners spend very little time in Kenya nowadays, with much of the year spent at training bases in Europe (London and Italy, it seems), Australia, or the US (Albuquerque and the Stanford area), or in competition. Could we be rubbing off on them? If you can't beat 'em, bring 'em down to your level.

Dan

[Conway]

Is that anything like "If you can't dazzle em with brilliance, blind em with bull--it!!" ???

Seems to me that many of the Kenyans do train and compete abroad .. As did many before them .. If I remember correctly many were in Washington and Texas (Washington St and UTEP) in the 70's and 80's .. Beginning what was to become the foreignization of the collegiate system .. First the Kenyan distance runners .. Then Nigerian and Jamaican sprinters .. Although the Jamaicans had already been coming in small number before (Quarrie, Miller, et al) .. And of course foreign field eventers of all kinds .. But that is an entirely different topic for another discussion ..

Regarding Kenyan distance runners I have often wondered if they would not have more benefit staying "home" and training .. As their natural training style seems to produce more than those of other countries .. Their progress actually seems to slow once outside their own boundries .. Or is that my imagination ??

[Dan]

It does seem that the Kenyan junior talent is at least equal, and probably superior, to their senior performances. I doubt many of the juniors leave Kenya before being discovered, so there definitely is merit to that suggestion.

One reason I can think of for training abroad is that they train in conditions closer to what they'll be racing in. The altitude, terrain, and heat at home (not sure about the heat, but have you ever seen a non-sunny picture of Africa? ) probably toughen them unlike any other group, but specificity in training cannot be overlooked.

And then there's the ugly side... Access to drugs would be much easier abroad, although that doesn't quite follow with the line of thought that their improvement seems to taper off after leaving home.

Dan

[Conway]

I think the most important consideration for leaving home for the Kenyans is one of economics .. That and they seem to have one of teh most blind federations in the world ..

[Conway]

I don't see the Kenyans as the drug taking type .. Not serious enough about the sport .. At least to the naked eye .. Much too relaxed about it all ..

[Dan]

Playing Devil's Advocate, wouldn't you be relaxed knowing you have superior talent and more oxygen in your blood? Now, if the testing of today were any real threat to those other than compulsive tooth brushers, that might be reason not to be relaxed.

Dan

[Conway]

Now that doesn't hold, because the Brits have been caught .. Several times .. .. But I am curious as to why blood testing is not more common .. At least for medalists in major events .. AS for the KEnyans, if it weren't for the declining nature of their results over time I might agree with that .. But as soon as they leave home (with the exception of Danish Kipketer) their running rapidly goes in the tank ..

[Dan]

Do you have examples of their level dropping off after leaving Kenya? I agree that their top guys don't seem to be at quite the same competitive level as the junior athletes, but might it just be that the people they're up against improve at a faster rate in the senior ranks? After all, how much room for improvement is there for a 25 year old junior...?

Dan

[Conway]

Hmmmm .. Examples .. Well I guess we could look at their signature event - the steeple .. Barmasai, Kosgei, Boit Kipketer, Koskei, Kiptanui .. All came out did great things and then settled into (for them) a level of average competition (8:07 - 8:10ish) ..

Same could be said for their milers .. They have tons of guys that can run 3:32/3:33 .. And Ngeny may have peaked already .. The only one who seems to be improving steadily is Lagat ...

And where has Komen disappeared to ?? "Would that be enough examples ??

[Dan]

The problem is, do we know how long those individuals were training abroad before they came to prominence and then flattened out? Komen is a rather striking example, but there are a lot of rumors that the reason for his demise is just the opposite... going off drugs and trying to do it clean.

Dan

[Conway]

Not sure about how long they were out of the country .. And that would have a bearing on things relatively speaking .. But I do believe that they have shown to peak early and fall off and that is not a good trend .. Have not heard that about Komen .. Could explain some things .. But of course that would only call into doubt the entire upheaval of distance running over say the past half decade ..

[Dan]