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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Running Economy Reply with quote

I will first start off with a prime example. We have Haile running the marathon at 4:50 mile pace and a HS runner running the mile at 4:50. Ignoring all other factors like the energy pathways, why does the HS runner feel like he's sprinting instead? Let's just say he runs 500m at 4:50 mile pace so that the energy pathways don't get in the way. http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/economy.shtml
We can infer that he feels like sprinting compared to Haile because it takes more *effort*. So why does it take more effort? Well I've already set it to 500m so energy doesn't get in the way as much. Think about it.
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This man will square you away, buddy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibWjSEw-F4&feature=related
You should try to have conversation with him. He is like you, a Guru of running.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem:
500 m can be considered and extended dash (I try to use dashes for 100 to 300 m, and sprints for 300 to 600 m); and if a person tries to run them as such, it would defeat the purpose.
Let say for the sake of an argument 600 m run at an even pace with great attention to form and economy.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
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Angelo Z
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Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so it's 600m then. Here's the catch though, we can't deny that the HS 4:50 miler does not run economically. There is some underdevelopment somewhere, he's too weak, but where? When we feel like we are sprinting we feel it in two places: the upper body and legs but more in the legs. The HS runner would indeed waste energy by moving is upper body too much as well as his arms, they do not look relaxed like Haile's 4:50 mile splits do. When you feel like you are running fast, you feel effort on your pecs and shoulders. Now most importantly, the legs. Let's first look at the strength of the HS runner's legs compared to Haile's. Most likely, they will have similar max reps on any type of leg workout. Next up is endurance. Haile would have more muscular endurance, but not significantly seeing that endurance gains come to a hault when a runner actually becomes a runner. What I mean by that is that a 4:50 miler has had enough time to develop the maximum endurance gains from running itself. After that running won't help much. It's like being stuck to lifting 10 lbs only. Now from all of that, it still doesn't make any sense. Why does a 4:50 mile feel like a swift, easy jog on Haile's legs? My only guess is neuromuscular adaptations. Bringing back the 10 lb example, the body eventually adapts to the amount of weight it's being trained with. Once it fully adapts, that weight is useless to go any further, so now it's time to turn to heavier weights. The same concept applies to running but in terms of pace, not weights. When you run at 8:00 mile pace until the whole thing feels like a jog, then it's time to raise the bar to 7:30 mile pace. Haile obviously has done this for a longer time as his PR mile time reflects it. When he can run well under 4 minutes for the mile, going up to 4:50 is not an issue at all. I wanted to use a shorter distance than the mile to eliminate the energy pathways as much as possible for the sake of keeping this simple and straightforward. And you're right 600m would be the right distance. The 800 would be when pain starts to kick in and we don't want that for this example.

If you do want to go into energy pathways, here's my other example: Lance Armsstrong. I see the VO2 max tied significantly to the energy pathways. A runner's VO2 would be like 70-75. Lance's was in the high 80s. And if you also wanted to know, Bjorn, the cross country skier, his VO2 was at 96. He still could of easily surpassed 100 "If the test was taken in the mid season." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_D%C3%A6hlie

Lance and Bjorn are both prime examples reflecting the energy pathways; aerobic capacity, ATP, CP, Muscle glycogen, lactic acid. They couldn't run sub 3:50 miles by far, or more reasonably, a sub 2:05 marathon.
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He needs to get event--specific stronger and become more explosive: translation: shorter contact with the running surface.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
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Angelo Z
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Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haile is explosive but doesn't look explosive. He runs on air.
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Paul
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Joined: 28 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeurr, that was a very good amateur technique video. I can see where Gassner can run the times he has. One interesting note. At about the 3:50 point, he is overstriding a bit. He is running left to right on the screen. At 4:10, returning right to left, he has corrected that, and you can tell it looks better. The whole video is reminiscent of Chi Running by Dreyer.
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