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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, though all of these are great tips, I have a much broader view for him and that is getting in that very low 4:00 range. It does take work to run sub 5 but the real factor lies in running significantly under 4:30 for the mile. I have noticed something among elite athletes and high school athletes. Both types are doing everything right during racing season. Short intervals, low mileage, and so on. There is no secret to that. However, in order to get your body to improve faster past the high 4:00 range which many, many, many runners have trouble with, is to train at 5000m pace during the summer and throughout the winter. Fast continuous runs just a bit slower than tempo runs, long intervals of 1000-2000m, and tempo runs is the secret to getting through that 4:00 mile range and under. Many high school runners lack that because they run indoor track and cross country. Although cross country does provide 5K training, it is 5K training solely for the purpose of getting fast, fast just like track is. Many workouts, not many times to recover, low mileage whereas 5K training pace during the summer (not the XC kind) is soley based on improving your overall running ability.

Some runners do in fact, run over the summer and all, but they focus on volume and neglect quality. When 90%+ of one's mileage is just easy running such as 7:30 pace for Steven as an example, it does no good in improving his aerobic power or endurance in order to get through that 4:00 range. All it does is just allow you to run farther with very minimal pace improvement simply because easy running offers no challenge to improving your easy pace. The only challenge it offers is running more miles when you place that strain on the body.

Elite runners do not have to do 5K training or just off season training for long periods of time so they can run indoor track and such because they have already reached their limit in aerobic endurance that the human body can offer. All it is from then on is speed work, focusing on taking down those few milliseconds or seconds for a new record. Off season training is not neglected though, it's just not in the amount that a person in the process of reaching sub four (5:00-4:00 range runners) would run.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No wonder African runners are so successful, because they run most of their mileage at a much higher intensity. It's not necessarily through intervals, but just from running faster continuous runs. They run 9 milers at 4:50 pace, 14 milers at 5:30 pace, and so on. Those paces would translate into low to upper 6:00 for the average sub 5:00 miler. With only those handful of high school runners that run a pretty fast national mile time of 4:09, 4:05, 4:00, also have great 2 mile times, 5K times and 10K times. That means that you cannot run a 14:00 minute 5K as a 4:50 miler. So if one's mile time is related to longer distances, then how do you get better at those longer distances? It's endurance and Steven, you know how you were on the XC team at the beginning of the school year? Do you know how your time probably dropped from a high 18:00 5K to a mid-low 17:00 time? I'm not directly asking how, I'm just asking rhetorical questions because that is really what happened. As you've also said a long time ago, most of your training was comprised of intervals and hard hills.

It means that intervals do not do squat in improving your endurance, all they did was gain you some speed/improve VO2 max/improve lactic capacity and got your 5K down by roughly 90 to 120 seconds. You don't want to be the type of runner like most runners on your team, running with the team as usual throughout the year and dropping a few more seconds here and there in the 800 and mile and little bit more for the 5K and end up running a 4:40 mile your senior year or a 16:30 5K. You want a scholarship is what you said and to get that, you must have some very good times, times that most runners on your team would dream about, times anywhere from between state and national to national level. People aren't just born with the advantage of being able to become a sub 4 miler and others aren't. The average or should I say amateur, runner like you for example, can make it.

During last summer, I've been suggesting an aerobic base over and over again, to build up your mileage. I wouldn't call it a lie, but the truth was that I was trying to convince you in building up your mileage in order for you to be prepared for a totally different type of training from now on during the off season and to strengthen your joints, ligaments, and improve your running economy. All that stuff about running long and far to build up your mitochondria, your aerobic capacity, was not true in the fact that it would actually make you run a faster 5K, a faster 10K, or other distances. Otherwise, you would have been dropping a 16:30 right at the beginning of XC season. The new form of training will be like your base (mileage speaking), but at paces that will be challenging to get through that 7 miler, or that 4 miler for example. This time during track season, I've been trying to convince you to make some of those continuous runs challenging so that you're not just cruising through at an easy pace that you're used to running at in runs of 4 miles+, in order to get ready for the summer and help you a little bit more during track. If you do all of that during the summer, you will run a very fast 5K time at the beginning of your XC season (mid to potentially a sub 16 5K) this year and then there will be even more room for improvement from the speed workouts. It will no longer be the case where you and the rest of the runners you knew will pretty much be at the same level at the beginning of the season again. When you run a 15:40-15:30ish towards the end of the XC season, you will notice a hell of a huge improvement in your mile time during time trials at the beginning of next track season without actually having done so many intervals, sprints, etc. That's endurance at work. This is what I do in my free time, thinking and learning about running and the science behind it. For example, I never knew any of this stuff about easy running vs. steady running, and pace. I just started out by running all of my 30-60 minute runs at a painful pace way back and still do. So maybe that means that we're bound to run like that naturally?Rolling Eyes
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came up with a better explanation. If you want to get better at a certain distance, you must train at a distance close to that distance. Running faster to get faster only works up to some extent. Here is what I mean: Let's say that you run 50 miles a week at 7:20 mile pace with 2 workouts of 100s and 200s. You run those 100s and 200s very, very fast, like your 400m race pace. Those two workouts, will not do a thing to your easy runs. Now if you run long tempos or long, challenging runs of 7 miles @ 6:40 or a 7 mile fartlek with 1 mile hard interspersed throughout, they will massively improve your easy pace/endurance.

Here is like a visual. Think of a triangle that is upside down. The bottom, pointy part represents speed, and the top, broad part represents endurance. Now let's divide that triangle up according to distances used in training. The very very top of it would represent easy pace, a little lower than that will represent steady or long tempo pace, the mid portion represents short, hard tempo pace, and the the rest on down represents 800s, then 400s, then 100s.

Now let's say that you train at all of those paces except for that long tempo pace. This is what happens to people that can never get down through that 4:00 mile range: they have a "training triangle" with that long tempo portion being smaller in width than the short tempo layer. They are trying to jump from easy pace all the way to the 20 minute tempo and on down. The problem is that a 20 minute tempo is just too short distance-wise to make any significant improvement in your very true endurance-starting from your easy pace. You keep trying to make everything from the tempo and on down more and more challenging but you can't because you cannot pull enough endurance from the very top because that layer between your easy pace and tempo pace is too short in width to combine the endurance with the speed. It's like trying to push a 10x5 foot mattress through a 3x3 foot door, it just won't budge and that is why improvement is so minimal because you [i]can't run a 20 minute tempo at 5:00 mile pace if your easy pace is 7:30.

That is what I've been trying to explain. I am not saying to make all of your easy runs at a long tempo pace because when you run 7 miles at a fast pace for example, it counts as a workout and you can't do that everyday. But the problem you've been having all along is that you have always either been running long distances at easy pace, then short tempos of 20 minutes tops and doing 800s, 400s, and all the rest. You can't just make all of your distances from 6+ miles easy. You gotta have 9 mile fartleks, 7 miles hard, or you can split up an 8 miler into two intervals for example and run the first half closer to your short tempo pace in the morning and then again in the afternoon.

Too many runners get the wrong idea that fast running only applies to short distances. And then you know what they tend to do? Add on more miles to improve endurance without making those long distances fast. [b]You have to bridge the distances among your pace range so that your faster paces can correlate with your slower paces. Once again, you can't run a 20 minute tempo at 5:00 pace if your easy pace is 7:30. That set just doesn't match up. Running 8 miles hard will do you a lot more good in helping your easy pace as opposed to running a 20 minute tempo. That is the secret, to help improve your easy pace so that you can open new doors to mile run improvement because it all has to start from the very top with endurance. And that is why we start off during the summer by running those long distances fast and then transfer that effort to the shorter distances to improve our speed. You don't even have to run 1 single 1000m interval over the summer. It will all be workouts of 6 miles+ at a fast pace balanced out with easy runs in between in order to recover.

Sunday: long run @ easy pace (progressive pace in late summer)
Monday: 8 miles hard (6:30ish pace)
Tuesday: 7 miles easy
Wednesday: 9 mile fartlek with every other mile being hard (6:05 pace)
Thursday: 8 miles easy
Friday: 4 miles AM & PM very hard (just a little slower than tempo pace) (6:15 pace)
Saturday: 7 miles easy (4 miles PM @ 6:30 pace in late summer)

Just an example. I didn't count the mileage, but yeah, it will be around high 50s-60 flat. And then after summer you run less of those long distances hard and the effort is given to 20 min. tempos, 4x2000m workout for example, and then in February it will be like 400s when track will begin.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo:
take one week off;

only 200 m repeats with 3 minutes of rest; all out, only 7 to 8 times

do it twice a year and see how much you will improve over mile
Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeurr wrote:
Angelo:
take one week off;

only 200 m repeats with 3 minutes of rest; all out, only 7 to 8 times
practice only 3 days out of 7

do it twice a year and see how much you will improve over mile
Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo Z wrote:
People aren't just born with the advantage of being able to become a sub 4 miler and others aren't.
Sure they are... When I was in high school, there were some kids that had been running before I ever began, before high school, and ran all four years with me and never beat me... and then there were a few guys younger than me who would start beating me on seemingly less training. It's not like I didn't train hard enough, either; one summer I thought it would be a good idea to run with my friend, who was the fastest on the team (almost 2 minutes faster in a 5k at the time) as much as possible. By the beginning of the season I was way over-trained, and some friends who were running workouts slower passed me up in races... It wasn't until I settled down with them that I started running well again. People have a very wide range of abilities in running and responding to workouts.

I'm not saying you guys aren't capable of running sub-4 someday, I know Steve has definitely shown some talent (he's probably about where I am after 5 years of running, after only like a year and a half...). No one knows what your limits are without actually putting in the work (e.g. Brian Sell or Nick Symmonds - both went to D-3 colleges and ended up Olympians). But there is such thing as talent.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talent is the smallest difference between people. Running a 3:42 mile is talent. However, running a 4:20 mile instead of a 4:50 is not. Every average runner out there is born with the ability set by nature to at least progress to a sub 4:00 mile. By average I mean young, high school-type runners. The 5:00 mile or the 4:50 mile is about the peak of the first "running cycle." The average runner starts with an easy pace of roughly 7:30 and when they start doing speed work for the first time, their mile time tends to fall from a 6:00 to 4:50 in just a few months, or a whole track season. I bet that when Steven started to run in his first season, his mile time fell by at least 45 seconds because he lacked that speed training so there was a whole new range for improvement. The 5:00-4:50 range is usually the barrier that most runners have a problem with because they do not repeat that running cycle again. You have to go all the way back to your endurance running and improve your easy pace. The secret is how to improve your easy pace and that is through long tempo runs of up to 75 minutes. It's not actually done at tempo pace but I call it tempo because you're basically running for the same amount of miles as you would through easy pace, but at a challenging pace. The common mistake is to add on more mileage at easy pace. "We'll just go up to 80 miles and improve," wrong. Easy pace is easy running, you cannot improve pace-wise if you're running easy and you cannot build more muscle if you are lifting light weights. The only improvement easy pace offers is when you add on more miles, the stress in that is simply adapting to run farther.

Here is an example:

Summer-winter: 7:30 easy pace
Racing season: 6:00-5:00 mile improvement
Summer-winter: 6:30 easy pace
Racing season: 5:00-4:30 mile improvement
Summer-winter: 6:00 easy pace
Racing season: 4:30-4:00 mile improvement

Every summer+racing season is a complete running cycle. Mile time directly correlates with easy pace as well as other times such as the 2 mile run, the 5K run, etc. Easy pace is our "neutral" pace of running. Our whole running ability is simply based on our easy pace. You will not see 5:00 milers running at 9:00 easy pace, and you will not see 3:50 milers running at 6:00 easy pace. I mean, they can run at those paces if they want to, but mathematically and biologically, easy pace is calculated as 7:30 for 5:00 milers and 5:40 for 3:50 milers. As you can see, the concept of slow improvement still applies because you first make a 60 second improvement as opposed to 30 seconds. But when runners struggle for a 5-10 second improvement through the 4:00 range during a racing season, then the issue is related to the easy pace ordeal. And as we all know, we can't jump from a 4:00 mile to a 3:30 mile like the pattern shows because that is when we are limited biologically so the only other explanation is talent. Yes, that is when you can actually say that that runner has a natural advantage. It also explains how Alan Webb went from like a 4:55 mile to a 4:26 mile in a year. The 4:00 range is quite simple if you train right. Too many people make a big deal out of it.

Maybe that guy with the 2 minute faster 5K ran more seasons than you. He probably ran XC, indoor, and outdoor every year. Or maybe he started running a lot earlier than you overall. If you were running an 18:00 5K and he was running a 16:00 5K, then it doesn't count because a sub 15:30 5K is usually the the barrier breaking point relative to the running cycles. In other words, a 16:00 5K is still a bit slow if you initially considered it to be a good time. He could have very well got stuck in that low 16:00 5K range and was unable to make much great improvement after that. If he was running a lot faster than that then it just means that he was a more experienced runner overall. It's like you running a 5:00 mile and him running a 4:30. You can't really call that talent, it's experience.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I havent checked back on this in a while so i just read all of what you had to say, but it all makes sense. I have definatly changed my way of thinking from a large amount of easy miles to less miles but much faster. But just to add on to everything you said, mental strength/mindset plays a large part in how fast you can run. Compare this, me and another kid on my team ran a 4:58 and a 4:56 respectively but when it comes down to it, im faster then him but he ends up beating me becuase of his mental strength. I have trouble focusing during a race and pushing the pace, while he does not. So in the end he beats me when i know all i had to do was draft off him and kick and i would beat him by at least 3-5 seconds but because of that mental game, he wins. Just to along with the physical training, mental training is a big part of it.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, none of that head twirling or looking up at the sky cutting off your air supply Laughing I am guessing that you are somewhat fearful during a race about the pain getting worse and so on. I know what it feels when you just can't move those legs enough but you can. Imagine doing a set of intervals with your coach telling you to just sprint the last interval from start to finish. The same is within a race. You just have to click back into reality and realize, "Hey, I have to beat this kid." Next time you race with him, try to stick behind him throughout the mile and on the very last 300m right after you get around the first curve, bring the hammer down and just sprint past him without hesitation. Imagine that you are literally being chased by an animal. That is what the problem with racing for most people: they don't take it too seriously as opposed to being chased by an animal. Because I guarantee you that if you were being chased by some rabid squirrel (ok, maybe they can't run that fast) but by some bloodthirsty pit bull, your focus would be head on. The faster you run, the faster you'll get it over with. Racing is about you individually and no one else. You got in the race yourself, you got on the team yourself, it was your decision to even become a runner. It is your own personal achievement just like people try to attain a certain job position or get into a certain college, or whatever. You are the one in pursuit of obtaining what you want. Racing with heart is not about thinking you ran your hardest, it is about taking charge, don't wait for anything. Now as to when to take charge, well, that's when tactic comes into play. I mean, theory like theory, but reality is what really kills us.

A race is just like a test but some don't even know why they are doing one or the other. Why do you want to beat that kid? So you can be satisfied. Why do you want to be satisfied? So you can feel good. To feel good about what? To feel good about your own effort, it is only in your advantage. You must get that mature ideology and do you what you signed yourself up to do in a professional manner.

Steve Prefontaine said, "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Whose gift?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true but I have never had a problem kicking in the last quarter mile of any race. I very rarely get outkicked. My problem is the early pacing, not the last 300 meter, thats the biggest part of my race. I guess im more fearful of not having a kick and thats why im hesitant to go out with the leaders, which i guess boils down to a lack of confidence that I cant physically run that hard pace when in fact I know I can. A few days i had a pretty long talk about that with a good friend that I run with and the a solution we came up with is...during the scrimmage that we run before the actual track season starts, im gonna run the mile but instead of just drafting off the lead pack, im gonna take the pace and still try and kick just to prove to myself that I can handle that pace. Seems as good an idea as any to build my confidence, and even if I run poorly, just taking out the pace will let me know that I can run that pace.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just remember, what you do in practice is designed to set you up for what you're capable of in a race. That is the biggest source of confidence, in my opinion.

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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan is right, but then again, there are runners that don't hit their workout times often but the gloves come off when they race.

Steve, I don't think you should be a front runner in that race. When you run at 6:00 pace, you create a 14 mph wind. Although the wind isn't that big of a deal, running in front is not good mentally in the middle of a race. It just has to do with the fact that no one else is in front of you. Most professional runners out there, whether it is Haile, Bekele, Hicham, Morceli, etc., you always see the fastest runners taking the lead at the end of the race. Never ever take the lead at the beginning. If you can at the very least, stick to the front pack through the first 600 like you usually do, and then you can take the lead on the 1000m stretch.

Remember, I said that that is the very least. It would be better to go out with 600m to go. Just take the lead on the last 600 but make sure you progress to your kick, don't just go out kicking with 600m to go. Progress, and then kick with 300m to go. If you were a sub 4:00 miler, then you would be kicking with 400m to go but since 300m is roughly 60 seconds for you, kick at the 300.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah after thinking about it, im definatly not a front runner. But Angelo that training that you have been suggesting as definatly been working. We had a 800 time trial yesterday and i won, beating the kid who is supposed to be our top 800 runner this year. And today i did a 6 miler at 6:37 pace, so im starting to get back into shape. As of right now, im having a pretty good feeling about this season and how well our track team is going to fare. We have an extremely weak sprinting team except for one kid. Our distance squad is going to be solid. I just want to ask a quick question, wats a good 1200 time? Im most likely going to be running the 1200 on the DMR so I just want some feedback on a good time.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plug in your idea of a good time for nearby distances like 800m and 1600m (or mile) and this will give you a good indication:

http://run-down.com/statistics/calc.php

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just make sure you get proper rest between runs like those. Running 6 miles at 6:37 pace is basically a workout just like running a 20 minute tempo. As you already know, track is for doing the short stuff to gain middle distance running speed only so it's important to not do tempos and long tempos of 6 miles+ too often because you need the speed instead. You should just have most days as speed workout days of intervals of 200-2000m with 2-3 days as easy runs/long run at your neutral, 7:30 pace. Tempo run every other week or so. You'll be doing a ton of those long tempos throughout the summer and winter when your endurance will really start to shine. There really isn't much you can do now besides getting proper rest between the speed workouts and focusing on hitting those times as much as you can. The reason being is that you can easily overtrain with 30-40 miles a week because so much of it is just very fast running. Your improvement is all going to be dependent on your level of endurance. You won't get down from a 4:58 to a 4:15 mile this season, but you will be able to next season easily. It's all because it's a step by step process, first you just had to build up your mileage so that you can at least run 60-65 miles a week which is pretty much all you need. You will probably take off 10-15 more seconds and that will be about the plateau for you this season. No worries though, a 4:15-4:20 mile isn't some big wonder, you will find yourself jumping through that gap just like you jumped from a 6:00 to a 5:00 mile. It's all about that long tempo training during the summer and winter working your endurance, that's what will open the door for you. With a 4:40ish mile by the end of the track season, you will have plenty of raw leg speed to make huge improvements in your endurance, especially your easy pace. What 6:30 pace feels like for you now will soon feel like running at your past 7:30 pace and your tempos will become mid to sub 5:20s. Then you run track again, get down to a sub 4:20 mile and you repeat this whole thing again (this time 6:00 pace feeling like your past 6:30 pace) and then breaking 4:00 for the mile next track season when we'll be in college. You can even put a 4:40 mile time in the mcmillan calculator and it will show you that the easy pace is 6:31. However, 6:30 pace will not feel like your 7:30 pace now just because you can run a 4:40 mile at the end of this track season because you first need to do the endurance training throughout the summer and winter that I've been mentioning so many times.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

Now of course, all of your training paces will fall along the way and you'll be running tempos at roughly 4:45 mile pace, running 400s at sub 60 seconds and so on. Until then, focus on what you're doing now this is just a peek into the near future.

A really good 1200m time is sub 3:30 for you. 70 seconds a lap. A gutsy time though would be low 3:20s.

Back to progressing through the mile, the only reason that only a handful high school runners run mile times of under 4:15s and 4:10s is because they have a personal coach who tells them to do the type of training during the off season (summer+winter) that I've been trying to explain to you. Most high school runners just get into the seasons such as XC, indoor track and outdoor track without ever finding out why in the world they can never get their mile time down so much like the nation's top runners have. The school coach never really tells you, "Hey, you need a base, you have to first build up to x amount of miles and then after that do long tempos to improve your endurance." They just do their job and give you the training necessary for the season that you're in. But what you do on your own either comes from having a personal trainer like Galen Rupp, Alan Webb, German Fernandez have, or by finding out the secret yourself. It is all about knowing the secret and applying it. And runners in high school that actually train during the off season and still get nowhere is because they are just doing it wrong. For example, if you were to decide building up to 90 miles this summer by still running everything at 7:30 pace, then that will get you nowhere. It's not so much about the talent, it's about how much you know, in other words, training smart.
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My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥
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