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Who was the greatest American runner of all time?
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theory is that Moses may have had his streak ended earlier if he hadn't ducked the competition, which brings the worth of the streak in "greatest ever" contexts into consideration.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that case we will have to re-evaluate several careers .. For example, Carl Lewis' long jump career, while stellar, was marked by several years where he only competed in 3 or 4 competitions ... while his competition had 15 - 20 + competitions (with outstanding results) .. MJ quite obviously "ducked" many 200 confrontations after 1996 (and lost several before 1996), yet becasue of 2 races will forever be considered to be the greatest ever ..

My own personal philosophy is that one shouldn't be dinged for competing and losing (some 2nds and 3rds here and there aren't a problem) ... I would penalize you more for not showing up and putting forth the effort .. Easy to prepare for one or two competitons and do noting else .. Much harder ot compete and retain the edge .. At least in my opinion ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. So, who are the best when looked at in that light? MJ in the 400, Maurice gaining momentum in the 100, Pre would probably deserve consideration, Trason obviously, Drossin among contemporaries, Ashford, Allen Johnson... Any other notables?

Dan
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2002 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I remember about Bill Rodgers he could land in that category too. He went up against the best in the world at Boston and New York as well as the Olympics. Unfortunately he had no success at the Olympics and is sometimes over looked because of that.

I'll also pull one other name from the ultra community that only ultra fans would recognize. Frank Bozanich was at his prime in the 70's and was known for running ultras the way Pre ran track...from the front, challenging anyone else to try to stay with him. Won quite a few of them too.
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2002 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Alberto Salazar. Didn't he win Boston and New York a combined 4 or 5 times without loosing. When you look at the races being run that is a pretty big streak. And I may get strung up for this one but am I the only person here that thinks that Ultras just aren't as competitive as other races. I mean around the world there are probably millions of kids that participate in Track and Field events every year. Road races of 1 mile to 26.2 routinely have thousands of participants all across the world. Ultras just don't draw the same kind of participation and therefore have comparitively weaker fields. You could say that the "pool" of ultra-marathoners is realatively tiny in comparison to other events in this areana. And therefore any streak in ultras is weaker than a streak in another event.
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2002 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the total number of participants in ultras overall is small compared to other aspects of running...and I would be absolutely shocked if it was not. How many runners in any given weekend 5K have the mental fortitude to train for and complete even a 50K, much less a 100 mile trail race? So the pool of elites is small, but that does not detract from their level of excellence. As far as streaks in ultras being weaker than streaks in other events I would not necessarily agree. Ann Trason has not been beat by another female in over 10 years. Dan of course will point out, as he has in the past, that Trason's competition is weak. Maybe so, but during those 10 years no other woman has even come close and on many occasions Trason has finished among the top 3 men and has won numerous races outright, including the 24 Hour National Championships. I believe it can be argued that Trason competes closer to the elite men in her specialty than any other woman in any other event.

Other streaks are made against the course as much as the other runners. For example, Tim Twietmeyer has finished the Western States 100 in less than 24 hours 20 times and has won it 5 times. No one except Trason even comes close. The point I was making about Bozanich wan't about streaks but his style of running. He is one of those runners that always runs hard and from the front even if the distance is 50 miles.

Salazar certainly falls in that category. He ran the Falmouth Road Race so hard one year (in August) that he won and was immediately placed in a tub of ice to combat heat stroke! Incidently, Salazar ran and won the Comrades Marathon (56 miles) in South Africa. If he had chosen to run more ultras he could have been world class there too.
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2002 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another reason fewer people run ultras:

"Any idiot can run a marathon. But it takes a special kind of idiot to run an ultramarathon!"
Alan Cabally
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2002 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing what a little Prozac can do for a gimp's career. Wink

Dan
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2002 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
I agree. So, who are the best when looked at in that light? MJ in the 400, Maurice gaining momentum in the 100, Pre would probably deserve consideration, Trason obviously, Drossin among contemporaries, Ashford, Allen Johnson... Any other notables?

Dan


I'm going to add larry Myricks .. Lost his share but never backed away .. For about 15 years was always at the top .. Took superb efforts to beat him .. And he always competed at a high level ...

Bubka competed against eveyone all the time .. And won .. Yesteryear I would say Victor Sanyev in the triple jump .. And a very much unheralded Michael Marsh in the sprints ...
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2002 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Micah Ward wrote:
I believe it can be argued that Trason competes closer to the elite men in her specialty than any other woman in any other event.


I would agree with that.

Salazar ran and won the Comrades Marathon (56 miles) in South Africa. If he had chosen to run more ultras he could have been world class there too.[/quote]

I remeber when he did that good call. Also I would have to say he was a world class ultra marathoner. I know this like asking what your definition of "is" is but, if you win one of the biggest and most highly prized events in the world at anything wouldn't that make you world class at it. And from what I understand Comrades isn't just any ultra it's the big ones. Being that it's run in South Africa and that I've actually heard of it when I can only remeber actually hearing about three or four ultra's in the States it has to be one of the most improtant ultras in the world. And forgive me for using wheather I've heard of a race as critiria for it's importants but that's about all I have to go on.
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2002 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Comrades is one of the major ultras in the world and Salazar's win was absolutely world class. But that was the only ultra he ever ran. I would love to have seen him on some of the trail ultras.

As far as numbers go, Ultrarunning magazine (the Bible of the sport) reported 326 ultramarathons in the US in 2001 with 21,083 total starters and 18,884 finishers. The largest race was the JFK 50 mile with 818 finishers followed by the Sunmart 50K with 667 finishers. The largest 100 miler was Western States with 267 finishers.

I was not one of those finishers.
Micah...Western States before 50th birthday! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2002 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Salazar ran Commrades again and lost. I'll have to do a little research and see what I come up with
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2002 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck on getting the Western States 100 Micha. I'm not sure wheather to admire you, pitty you, or call the men in the white jackets for you. Wink
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All three options may apply!!! Surprised
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2002 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admire Micah's pitiful psychoticness .. Wink
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