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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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 Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | even those guys talk about the necessity of incorporating speed work into training for ultras. |
I wonder what they refer to as speedwork?
| Quote: | | The bottom line is that no matter what the distance, with everything else being equal, the guy with faster leg turnover will win. |
I couldn't agree more!
Teter's current speciality is the 800, so one would assume she's got a good deal of speedwork behind her. Same could be said of Runyon's heptathlon and mid-distance background. I've been told by training partners of Runyon's that she puts in her share of mileage, but she also has her natural speed that is often unleashed at the end of workouts.
Dan |
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Distance_Guru
World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Everything else being equal the person with any advantage is going to win whether that advantage is speed, endurance, biomechanics, or the weight of their shoes.
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Distance_Guru
World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Conway wrote: |
As for Wettmore et al and their accomplishments ... While they have done well against their contemporaries ... They still have NOT accomplished tghe results that we are discussing - creating world class competitive runners ... Saying that they are the best of the current lot is like saying that a group of JV runners are the best JV runners in the land ... That is fine if the goal is to be the best JV runners in the land ..... However if the goal is to beat the varsity then there is still much morek to be done ... And their accomplishments to date do NOT prove the ability to develop the desired results .... As what they have done is still mediocre when compared to the bench mark ..
Now back to that long post ... THAT is exactly what I have been saying ... Gto to develop distance strength and endurance .. BUT MUST HAVE some pure speed work to get the fast times !!!!! And in my opinon until this kind of work is done by our distance runners they will remain also rans internatinonally ... And THAT is what we are talking about ... Not who is better than who here in the states ... But rather HOW are we going to become competitive internationally !!!! |
You know what really cheeses me off? Is when people are very critical of someone for being successful, with methods that aren't the main stream.
You can say what you want about his methods and his success internationally but his athletes are having as much success as any Americans are right now. The way you make it sound, Wettmore is the only coach in the US with any athletes that have the talent to compete interantionally and he's holding them back. Calling his accomplishments JV is an insult to every distance running coach in the US. And besides before you can be the best in the world you have to be the best in your own country and right now the athletes coached by Wettmore are amoung them. As for their accomplishments on the world stage wasn't Jorge Torres 11th at the World Cross Country Champs (4k) and Ritz was somewhere in the 20's in the 12k and neither of these guys is even 22 yet. Throw in the success of Goucher and Culpepper on the national level and he's had as much success as any American coach in the last 15 years.
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Everything else being equal the person with any advantage is going to win whether that advantage is speed, endurance, biomechanics, or the weight of their shoes. |
Yeah, but aside from finishing speed, you can't make a very strong case for any of those factors deciding who will win once all else is equal at the kicking stage of a race. That's where speed becomes pretty much the only factor.
| Quote: | | You know what really cheeses me off? Is when people are very critical of someone for being successful, with methods that aren't the main stream. |
I don't quite follow. Are you saying it's okay to criticize a successful coach who's methods are mainstream? Or that we should only be critical of non-mainstreamers who are not successful? In other words, absolute success (not taking into what they have to work with) is the determing factor as to whether or not someone can be critiqued? Good thing Siskel and Ebert never took that stance. 
As to your being offended by Conway's JV analogy, I don't see how you read that from what he said. That's the problem he and I keep referring back to -- distance runners' seeming need to be offended by any mention of their lack of competitiveness on the international stage. Conway's analogy is very valid and not at all inflammatory to Wettmore or the great job he's done with his runners. It simply says that that model should not be taken as the holy grail of distance training until it at least proves it can match the likes of Geb, Komen, Tergat, ElG, et al's models.
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Distance_Guru
World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but aside from finishing speed, you can't make a very strong case for any of those factors deciding who will win once all else is equal at the kicking stage of a race. That's where speed becomes pretty much the only factor.
Oh yes I can. Speed can be strung out if one athlete has greater endurance then they simply kick from farther out. The best speed in the world is no help if you've been run into the ground by a runner with better endurance.
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Distance_Guru
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Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 8:52 am Post subject: |
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And it's not like we don't know what Tergat, Geb, et al are doing. Coaches all over America have been trying it for years and it simply hasn't worked here. We need to find a way of training that works for Americans and people who think outside of the mainstream, such as Wettmore are finally doing just that.
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Hammer
Varsity
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 385
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Are Conway and Dan alter egos operating on different computers?? |
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Speed can be strung out if one athlete has greater endurance then they simply kick from farther out. |
You're changing the question instead of responding directly to it. If a kicker has been stung early in the race, then everything else is no longer held equal at that point. Besides, on the international scene, the kickers tend to also be the ones most capable of sustaining the fast early paces and prolonged kicks, so that becomes a moot point.
| Quote: | | And it's not like we don't know what Tergat, Geb, et al are doing. |
Really?
| Quote: | | Are Conway and Dan alter egos operating on different computers?? |
I was waiting for that... If you go back through old posts, you'll see that Conway and I do not agree on everything and finish each other's thoughts in cluster posts. Nice try, though.
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Lest my last paragraph in the previous post be taken wrong, let me reiterate that I have very little respect for people who choose to hide their identities. That may be the nature of the internet, but it ranks pretty high on my "low idiot tolerance" chart. For all we know, Hammer and DG do not even coach. Given that, why would you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously? If my words sound overly harsh at times, it's precisely because of that reason.
Just food for thought.
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hold on Guru ... I have said nothing against the coaching methods of Wettmore or anyone else for that matter ... Nor (I repeat) have I said anything negative about heavy mileage training !!!!!
What I have said is that I feel that speed needs to be added to the mix in order for US distance runners to become more competitive on the international level ...
As a matter of fact I stated that Wettmore is at the top of the heap here in the US ... But yes I did liken that to be the leading JV performer when what you want to be is at the top fo the VARSITY - Tergat, Geb, ElG et al being the varisty !!!! |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure why saying that speed needs to be added is such a bad thing ... And talking about string speed out over the race is NOT talking abouto speed .. That is talking about pace (a faster pace no doubt) but pace none the less and the ability to maintain a faster pace .. The reference ot Teter isa perfect example ... As good a 800 runner as she has become her best race may be the 1500 as her "speed" gives her an advantage over most ....
If you look at the German and Russian women from the 70's and 80s and forget about drug use and look at training/racing philopsphy ... You will see that virtually all of their middle distance people competed all the way down to the 400 - running open 400s and relays ... And almost all of them were 50 point something ... By contrast their sprinters ran everything from 60 through 400 ... They believed in developing both speed and strength/endurance ... And their results show it ... They STILL dominate the all time lists at everything on the track !!!!! And beyond drug use it was philosophy ... All kinds of people have used drugs (and still do) ... But no group has had the successes that the German's and Soviet's had ... No one ... And everytim you look at a distance runner that incorporates speed you see them at the upper ends of success ... Male or female .. Ryun, Jacobs, Kenyans, Morroccans ... Whoever ... THAT SAYS SOMETHING ...
And for the record I don't think that Dan or I either one has an ego so large as to mask an alternate ... We disagree but agree to disagree ... And try to have a healthy respect for the other when we do so ... And thre have been those occasions whenwe have swayed each other to the oother side ... Which is what good healthy debate is all about ...
<had to split again> |
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Distance_Guru
World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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I've had enough of this. Let me see if I can summerize.
1) Hammer and myself (who are two totally different people) beleive that distance runners should focus on aerobic conditioning, anaerobic conditioning, aerobic capacity and lacate tolerance training while doing speed work primarily through strides, and sprints before or after other types of workouts such as aerobic conditioing or anaerobic conditioning.
2) Dan and Conway feel that Americans would be better served to do more pure speed work.
Neither side has backed down from their stance and the disagreement has degraded into name calling and accusations of people using multiple names to post under, which has never happened.
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the disagreement has degraded into name calling and accusations of people using multiple names to post under, which has never happened. |
As I said in the private message to you, I'm not aware of any name calling that has taken place. You and Hammer are far too sensitive to being disagreed with. Between that and not wanting to share your identity (which DG kindly did with me privately), I'm not sure public discussion is in your best interest.
For what it's worth, I never even accused you of being the same two people, I only joked about it.
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Distance_Guru
World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Since tone isn't always apparent in posts I wish you would be a little more considerate when throwing around generalizations and "jokes".
You and Hammer are far too sensitive to being disagreed with. Between that and not wanting to share your identity (which DG kindly did with me privately), I'm not sure public discussion is in your best interest.
If you don't want people to use screen names on this message board then don't allow them. I would continue posting under my real name if that were the case, but until that time I'm perfectly happy using my screen name.
As for being sensitive maybe a little, hammer and I weren't the only ones getting worked up.
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Since tone isn't always apparent in posts I wish you would be a little more considerate when throwing around generalizations and "jokes". |
Fair enough. At the same time, keep in mind that I've used smilies (very common practice online for signifying a non-serious comment) wherever such generalizations and jokes have been stated, and I've said on a number of occasions that people would do well to not take things so seriously. Thus my comments that some people seem to be trying too hard to find something to be offended about.
| Quote: | | If you don't want people to use screen names on this message board then don't allow them. |
How would you propose disallowing screen names that were not actual names? Like I've said many times throughout the forum and said to you in a private message, it's up to the user if they want to remain anonymous. Just know that your credibility drops tremendously if you choose to do so. I've made no secret of the fact that I disapprove of anonymity.
A side note -- unrelated to this discussion, so please don't take it as a critique -- if you use the BBCode for quoting, it will be a lot easier to follow your posts (only really the above one and your private messages to me). I can figure out what's what since it's mostly my own words being quoted, but it could be rather confusing for anyone else trying to follow along. 
Dan |
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