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Bowerman (coachd) intervals vs. Standard Intervals
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
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Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. I guess a better term for something like Kipketer's workout would be speed endurance. It wouldn't be possible without the underlying speed, so viewing it as a separate entity misses the boat...


I disagree.... Any runner with a good foundation (aerobic, meaning solid XC season or Pre Track season) can complete the workout, but only a person with Kipketer's speed and endurance can complete the workout @ THAT PACE. There are many people in the world that can run 1 200 @ Kepketer's 21.XX pace. There are also many people in the world that can run 20, 200s @ 3-4 sec. slower than THEIR 200m pace. But VERY few who could run 20 with 30 sec. recovery. That is achieved with a combination of Speed and Endurance.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but only a person with Kipketer's speed and endurance can complete the workout @ THAT PACE.

That's exactly the point.

Quote:
There are many people in the world that can run 1 200 @ Kepketer's 21.XX pace. There are also many people in the world that can run 20, 200s @ 3-4 sec. slower than THEIR 200m pace. But VERY few who could run 20 with 30 sec. recovery.

Which is why very few people in the world have a chance of beating him...

The thing I don't seem to be able to get across, no matter how many times I repeat it, is that both speed and endurance have to be in place for success at the higher levels. More importantly, endurance can be built from a base of speed, but I have seen no evidence that it works the other way around (developing speed from an endurance base). I've seen plenty of evidence that the reverse fails miserably... We bemoan the fact that American distance runners are never in the mix internationally, but look at the incredible resistance in just this little forum to the ideas that may well make the difference. The typical mileage-based approach obviously isn't getting it done... Krummenacker finally turns to foreign coaching and works on his speed and is suddenly among the best in the world, yet here we still are debating its merits... Confused

Dan
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait a minute Dan.... You can't just take some small part of a post and then claim victory on another (un-related) argument Wink

This is a discussion on a particulary workout and our earlier debates dealt with LONG DISTANCE events from the mile-10k.


I don't believe that you even made a point in this agrument. You started talking about speed development. But soon you changed your point to fit the argument.
Quote:
More importantly, endurance can be built from a base of speed, but I have seen no evidence that it works the other way around (developing speed from an endurance base). I've seen plenty of evidence that the reverse fails miserably...


BASE OF SPEED: meaning that a runner must be born fast or become fast before then can work on developing endurance?????

What about another thing you talked about in an earlier post "SPEED RESERVE" : Isn't that what is developed when a FAST athlete developes endurance. It isn't the LEFT OVER speed of a very fast athlete. And thus the phrase is synonomis with ENDURANCE or SPEED ENDURANCE.

All of this is true for the middle distances bringing up long distance
Quote:

We bemoan the fact that American distance runners are never in the mix internationally, but look at the incredible resistance in just this little forum to the ideas that may well make the difference.
is just another example of changing the topic to fit your argument, or start another agrument.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to disagree with me, fine. But if you want to say I'm wrong, at least find more stable ground to stand on...

Quote:
This is a discussion on a particulary workout and our earlier debates dealt with LONG DISTANCE events from the mile-10k.

I haven't changed topics from that particular workout and I've made it quite clear that I am not commenting on anything above mid-distance, which I do believe was included in the scope of the original discussion.

Quote:
I don't believe that you even made a point in this agrument.

Seriously, that's the best you can do? I'm sure I've shared this before, but here goes again... Whenver someone accuses another person of being stubborn, the person doing the accusing is guilty of being equally stubborn. If you don't see how that applies to this discussion, then this is my last post to this thread.

Quote:
BASE OF SPEED: meaning that a runner must be born fast or become fast before then can work on developing endurance?????

Yes to the latter. Assuming, of course, success beyond age group competition (which is really all HS and college is) is the goal.

Quote:
What about another thing you talked about in an earlier post "SPEED RESERVE" : Isn't that what is developed when a FAST athlete developes endurance. It isn't the LEFT OVER speed of a very fast athlete.

Wrong. Speed reserve has nothing to do with endurance. It is the concept of having speed in excess of the pace being run, thus not having to go to the well early in the race to keep up. Speed reserve combined with endurance is what allows the kicker to win time and time again. Of course, you don't believe I've made a point anywhere in this discussion, so I'm sure you'll cast that rather important point aside, as well.

Quote:
is just another example of changing the topic to fit your argument, or start another agrument.

Rather than get offended by the statement, why not try analyzing it? Why are you (and the rest of the NM crew to varying degrees, I might add) so resistant to the idea of speed development playing a very integral part in mid-distance racing? Why can these questions not be raised without being a personal attack on your beliefs and coaching credentials? Why am I the only one starting the argument when your statements have been every bit as inflammatory as mine; probably more so?

Dan
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now is this a debate on training philosophy or a debate on debating.

I don't believe that I have ever stated on this site about speed or speed endurance not being important to the middle distances. What usually happens is that a group (including the NM crew) start discussing distance running and then the discussion gets SHIFTED to the middle distances so that you can claim expertiese (sp).

I do not mind debating middle distance training. As long as the discussion stays there. In fact I am willing to post my past and current plans for my 800m runners. Even though I don not claim expertiese (sp) I have had success with my runners. You will see that there are speed and endurance elements in the plans.

I would also hope that is thread would go back to the discussion about Bowerman vs. standard intervals, which I believe is an interesting topic. Maybe the members of the group could share some of their ideas about the way they are applied to LONG DISTANCE and MIDDLE DISTANCE running.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now is this a debate on training philosophy or a debate on debating.

It's become a debate on a lot of things, but training philosophy is no longer one of them.

Quote:
Whenver someone accuses another person of being stubborn, the person doing the accusing is guilty of being equally stubborn. If you don't see how that applies to this discussion, then this is my last post to this thread.

A simple yes or no will do.

Dan
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course re-posting a statement that implies that one will stop posting on a thread is a true sign of being stubborn. Admitance is the first step toward recovery.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Hammer, I take your non-response to be a "no" (and not in the least bit surprising, given your tendencies), so here is the way it's going to work. I go back to pretending you do not exist and avoiding threads that you participate in. That should make several of you happy. The difference this time is that, if I feel the need to moderate any of your postings, there will be no more warnings or second chances. This is your second strike. Next one and you're gone.

I honestly do not care if you feel this decision is fair, excessive, or something completely different. You have proven time and again that you are not worthy of my respect, so no respect is exactly what you are going to get. You are in a position of teaching youth, and I sincerely hope you can find it somewhere within yourself to develop the maturity and level-headedness that is necessary to do so effectively.

Anyone else unhappy with this decision, you know where the front door is.

Dan
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coachd
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a very bold step Dan..

It is unfortunate that you have allowed yourself over time to become less and less a modeator of a forum and more of participant who happens to be in charge of the site...I'm afraid you don't seem to see the difference. Or maybe I should pose it the same way you like to pose things:

I did not think I would have to ask this, but given your recent posts I
feel I must. You do understand the difference between a moderator and
poster, don't you?

Apparently the "New Mexico crew" (as you labeled us...there are only two right? Or is DG lumped in as well) is not really welcome in your little corner of the world. You say you don't intentionally attack or try to irk people---yet comments like, "the rest of the New Mexico crew" would indicate otherwise. As long as you can get people to agree and be in harmony with your way of thinking, everything is fine...but you don't like it when you are unable to sway, influence or otherwise control the flow of any particular thread.

There are some pretty sharp people on this forum among the regular posters...keep up the good work and if our posts never cross paths again
that will be too bad.

Dan, you have a nice site here. I hope you will give it the chance to grow and attract more participants, however as long as you desire to be the dominate voice, drowning out those who disagree with you or trying to intimidate people into "toeing the line", I doubt that will happen.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You do understand the difference between a moderator and poster, don't you?

What would you rather me do, have threads die off because posts go unanswered for several days? The only people complaining about my participation are those who don't agree with me... Ironic, eh?

If you guys dislike me so much, why are you here?

Quote:
Apparently the "New Mexico crew" (as you labeled us...there are only two right? Or is DG lumped in as well) is not really welcome in your little corner of the world. You say you don't intentionally attack or try to irk people---yet comments like, "the rest of the New Mexico crew" would indicate otherwise.

First off, it was you and Hammer (and DG to a lesser extent privately) who called me out before I made that comment. By that point, how could I possibly not connect the dots?? You guys constantly overlook your part in these debates... There certainly is a strong connection between the three of you, one which I might add was denied by Hammer and DG for quite some time. By choosing to back Hammer on these issues, you have made the choice to lump yourself with someone I no longer care to interact with. You can put that off on me if you like, but it all comes back to your decision...

Quote:
but you don't like it when you are unable to sway, influence or otherwise control the flow of any particular thread.

The distance-minded folk seem to think I am on a power trip and cannot handle not winning. Going back to my stubborn comment, let me ask you this: Have those of you on the other side of said debates shown any more willingness than myself to acknowledge opposing views or -- the horror -- change your minds? I didn't think so, so spare me the b.s. about it being just me. coachd, I believe you to be a rational and intelligent person, but I'm disappointed that you would resort to the same finger pointing as Hammer, from whom I have come to expect it.

Dan
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is unfortunate that you have allowed yourself over time to become less and less a modeator of a forum and more of participant

This point deserves to be followed up on in a bit more detail, for two reasons:

1) It's 100% wrong.

2) The sentiment seems to be a rather popular view with my small, but vocal group of detractors (both in public and private).

If you were so inclined to do a bit of research -- I know, much easier to cast around unsupportable accusations -- you would find that I actually respond to a lower percentage of posts now than I did in the early days of this forum. The reason being that I no longer have to answer every question for fear of no one else chiming in and making the place look deserted. My goal all along has been to take a smaller and smaller active role in the discussions.

Obviously not your perception of the situation, but I am confident the numbers will support me on this. Like I've been saying (with regards to who does the instigating, who is unwilling to compromise, etc.), the opportunity is there to prove me wrong. Put up or shut up time...

Dan
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it unfortunate that both Dan and "the New Mexico crew", of which I am a part, allowed this foolishness to escilate to this level.

I have a few items I'd like to clear up. I've privatly mailed Dan on a few of the issues that have been drug through the mud in the last day or so in an effort to maintain the level of civility on this forum. Not to "call out" anyone, as I was accused of doing.

I will agree that Dan has responded to a smaller percentage of the posts of coarse there's a good chance that's do in large part because of the increase in the number of posts since the "New Mexico crew" started posting.

I've said in private mails and I'll say here that I think as a moderator you should do more moderating and get less envolved in personal debates. But hey it's your site and if you want to argue with people that's your right wheather or not it's the best thing for the forum.

And lastly the three people in the New Mexico crew are avid track fans and have a lot to share with others on many of the subjects and genres under the umbrella of track and running in general. I find it highly regretable that we've been labeled as undesirables on this site simply because we don't always see eye to eye with the moderator. Coachd, Hammer and myself aren't internet forum thugs who go out looking to stir up trouble, make people look foolish or post tons and tons of worthless garbage for no other purpose than to get a high post total. And yet it is obvious that Dan has desided that we aren't welcome on his board because we don't share his opinons on certain things and aren't afraid to disagree with him about those things. I think that by attempting to run off three intelligent posters, who are free with advice and more than willing to explain their ideas to the benifit of the others on the forum, you are being both foolish and childish. But I suppose then that this is another thing I disagree with you on Dan.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've privatly mailed Dan on a few of the issues ... Not to "call out" anyone, as I was accused of doing.

I did mention that your messages were in private and critical to a lesser extent, but maybe that wasn't stated clearly enough.

Also, nowhere have I said that you and coachd are not welcome here. My beef is almost entirely with Hammer. It is the two of you choosing to throw your lot in with him and defend his "actions" no matter how outrageous they seem to everyone who is not part of your group (I get a fair number of private messages on that topic). Guilt by association, I suppose. If you two want to view this as me chasing you off, then I'm sorry to see you go, but I'll be making no apologies for your choice of allegiances, for lack of a better word.

I'm not even sure where this sudden concern over moderator vs. forum poster came about. Maybe because it seems to be the only tangible example that can be grabbed onto, but I've worn both hats equally for 4+ years now...

Quote:
I will agree that Dan has responded to a smaller percentage of the posts of coarse there's a good chance that's do in large part because of the increase in the number of posts since the "New Mexico crew" started posting.

That's up to you if you want to believe that to be true, but I guarantee you it isn't. I read through every post on this forum and only pass on responding if I feel I have nothing further to add. As Paul has mentioned to me in private, take a look at the times of my posts and it will be pretty obvious that I cover them all.

Dan
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward's worthless opinion:

One purpose of debate is to present ideas and examine, compare, discuss, etc., their relative merits. Sometimes a debate will result in some parties changing their opinions on the relevant matters. Other times the parties will simply agree to disagree and move on. It is the later option that seems to be falling through here.

There is a healthy mix of opinions in this forum and those opinions are normaly presented in ways that encourage thought and examination. But this thread seems to have generated some bruised egos and hurt feelings. That is unfortunate because if we all can be less thin skinned when we are disagreed with then the information can flow easier and the debate can continue in a way that stimulates an even greater degree of contemplation and learning.

No one of us has all the answers. Woodrow Wilson said, "Not only do I use all my brains, I use all I can borrow." It is that opportunity to "borrow" from each and every one who posts on this forum that makes this such a valuable site. Let's put the hurt feelings and name calling aside and move on.

But what do I know, I'm just a dumbass hillbilly living in a south Georgia swamp. Wink
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Other times the parties will simply agree to disagree and move on. It is the later option that seems to be falling through here.

Micah, I agree entirely with that and the rest of your post.

Dan
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