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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the vote of confidence Paul Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets imagine that i cant handle the milage/training. Should I then decrease the length of the easy aerobic runs on wed and sun, or should i decrease
the number of repetiton on tuesday/saturday or should i run the repetitions slower?

And on the AT work on monday what heartrate should i be running at? I was quite surprised when I heard that a 8.40 3k guy had a treshold at 168 HR
On the run on monday i have had a HR between 170-180. Is this too fast? I assume that my treshold is lower, because my 3k is much slower. Should i go for maybe 163-168 on
the monday run, or can I run them whith 170-180 as long as i recover to the next training?

And when my form improves, how should I change the training programme? should I run more vo2 max rep? shorter recoveries? Longer easy runs? maybe run
some morning runs? or....??? (lets say the goal is to improve my 3k time)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, you know a guy who can run a 3:48 1500m? Isn't that incredibly good? Is he a full-time athlete? I'm not american so I don't know what freshman, junior, sophomore and Pac-10 etc mean ... could you explain them please? Here in Britain if you could run it that quick you would be verging on qualifying for the world championships. I saw it on TV a few days ago - in qualifying the best was 3:38 and the worst was 3:48. If this guy improved a bit more he would be amazing.
Do some people just hit a limit and then find it hard to improve anymore? If this guy trained really hard couldn't he improve a bit more? He must have been training pretty much full time to get to 3:48! Couldn't he become a professional?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, he was amazing. At the time he ran his 3:54 in high school (mid-season), he was ranked 3rd in the country. He was very serious through the end of college, but is a recreational runner now (and seems very happy that way). An untimely bout of mono, stress fractures in his legs, and slicing his foot open quite badly derailed his progress, unfortunately. I have no doubt he would have been top 10 in NCAA DI Cross Country by his junior year, with 3:35 to 3:38 seeming plausible in the 1500m...

Freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior refer to the 4 years of high school (and college) in order from first to last. Pac-10 is the common name for the Pacific-10 Conference, one of the more prestigious collegiate conferences with the likes of Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Arizona, Oregon, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and a couple of other guys that I either ran against or who came out of high school right around the same time in our league:

Dan Browne (a year younger than me) - multiple US champ at 10k/15k type distances

Mike Miller (same year as me; ran "against" him in my last h.s. race) - 1:49 for 800m, 3:38 for 1500m

Scott Nicholas (a year older than me; same year as my teammate Tracy and quite the rivals) - 3:43 for 1500m; has the dubious distinction of posting the fastest non-qualifying provisional mark for NCAA's both his junior and senior years.

There were a couple of other pretty good ones, plus near-locals like Brian Berryhill (a guy I trained with a lot at OSU was 2nd to Berryhill in the 400m at state their senior years), Jamie Harris, Seth Wetzel, Rick Cantwell, Ben Andrews, Grant Robisson, and a bit further south, Billy Harper (who easily could have been the best runner in the country if he'd stayed healthy and academically eligible -- he was even with the top U of Oregon and U of Colorado (I believe Culpepper and possibly Goucher were there) runners when he was still a junior in high school!) and Ian Dobson. Not too bad for a state that was considered to have lost its distance edge. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Googlebot. If the mileage is to much for you I would advise a combination of slightly slower AT workouts and easier, possibly shorter easy runs. Gradually your body will come around if you slowly progress in intensity and volume. But rember in distance training patience is key there are no quick fixes (that actually work for more than one or two races anyway). And don't worry to much about your heart rate when compaired to others. There are such individual differences between people that short of running you through a maximal exercise stress test on a treadmill I am a little hesitant to put up hard numbers as to where your HR needs to be for a certain pace. Trust your body you'll feel if your running fast enough. As your form improves I personally would work on increasing the distance and decreaseing the rest on your quaility sessions. But to be honest the best change you can make is the one that you want to make. All of the things you suggested doing as your form improves are going to help you run faster. The one that you like doing the most is probably the one you will put the most effort and faith in and that will more than likely yeild the best result.

Dan, do people in Oregon seriously think that their state is slipping in terms of producing distance running talent? At least in the area's I've been Oregon is regaurded as a running Eden of sorts. The Pacific northwest is still reguarded as the heart of distance running country by the rest of the nation. There are a few altitude fans that might argue with you but I can't think of any other area of the US that has produced anywhere near as many top level runners are Northern California, Oregon and Washington. I suppose with th U of Oregon there could be a little Rick Patino attitude going on. To paraphrase "You people are expecting Salazar, Pre, Bowerman and Dillenger to walk through that door. Well they aren't and if they do they will be old and grey!" But for all the old ghosts that area is still a hot bed for top level prep runners. A dream of mine and of every other young and ambitous distance coach is to someday coach the Ducks. Oregon is to college track what Notre Dame is to college football.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A dream of mine and of every other young and ambitous distance coach is to someday coach the Ducks.

The women's job will be open soon, and it might have more job security with Title IX issues. Wink

I think mid-80's to mid-90's was a down period in Oregon, although that was largely indicative of the national trend as a whole. UO has done very little in terms of developing better than average talent over the past 15 years, despite bringing in some very good athletes (and passing on lots of others that wanted to go there). Even with the resurgence in Oregon running the past few years, Washington has consistently fielded better runners and better depth, largely due to the Spokane area.

Actually, despite Eugene's reputation as Track Town USA, I would have to say Spokane is the single biggest area of distance talent over the past 40 years. Eugene's claim to fame is more collegiate (i.e. not locals), other than the South Eugene HS group which was pretty damn amazing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell the coach to hold on for about 4-5 more years. I figure that's about how long it will take me to build up my resume to a level where I would even be considered for assistant equipment manager at a descent D1 school.

As much as I hate to admit it coaching is probably worse than most other industries for the who you know vs what you know factore for getting hired. And as someone that came from a program that had no conections and am currently coaching at a program which has only a few conections to a couple of NAIA schools it will take me a while to move up. But once I do.... look out world!!! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He supposedly tried to quit last year, but they wouldn't let them. I can't imagine that had anything to do with how bad the team's been since then...

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Anselm Murphy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny how everyone you know seems so dedicated and are really good, you're state seems to have a really good system for running and everything, but most English people still think of you Americans as 30 stone beasts who just can't stop eating!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've got our share of that type, too...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems you knew some guys who could get some really amazing times. How fast would you have to be to be a professional 1500m runner? Some of the times you said they could get seemed close. Wouldn't 3:35 be good enough for a professional? By the way, what is the world record, -is it 3:26?
You said that guy ran 3:54 when he was in high school ... all I can say is... !!!!!! How was he so good while so young? Did he train loads or was he just naturally great?
Are some people just naturally able to become really great runners and others can't - for example, if I decided to train all day like a professional, would I eventually get to around 4:00, or is it just that some people can and some people can't?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone has some unknown upper limit to how far hard work can get them, but there's no real way to determine that and I don't find it worth spending much mental energy on.

There are different levels of professionalism in the sport. For the most part, 3:45 is about what it takes for someone to pursue it post-collegiately as a job. Probably 3:40 or slightly under to make enough money off it to not have to also work another full time job...

My high school friend was very talented, but also supremely confident in himself and one of the hardest workers I've known. Going into the XC state championships his senior year, the most respect he got was being listed as one of the darkhorse contenders, that despite having only been beaten in one race that year (a huge Oregon-Washington invite we co-hosted with I believe 3 teams ranked in the top 20 in the nation, including the #1). He thought it was funny that no one knew who he was and seemed to take it as a challenge to change that... He went on to win by 10 seconds, looking in control the entire way.

He also had plenty of genetic help. His dad ran for U of Oregon (I think a couple of years before Pre, but in that era and closely tied to that group) and was an Olympic Trials qualifier and just retired as one of the top dogs at Nike, technical advisor on the Prefontaine movie, etc. He trained with our team regularly as an unofficial assistant coach. We had a couple of other pretty tough guys on the team (one of whom was predicted that summer by the above mentioned Scott Nicholas to challenge Tracy for the XC league title), but no one but Tracy could ever beat his dad in workouts until Tracy's senior year. That was pretty impressive.

The interesting thing is that Tracy's 3:54 came at a time when high schoolers throughout the country were not running very fast. That's 18 seconds slower than Webb ran for his 1500m split last year! The likes of Sage, Jennings, Powell, Riley, Karie, et al, have been running around 3:44 the past few years, so a 3:54 is hardly noteworthy these days. Still, I think he had the same kind of talent as those types and probably would have responded similarly to the national trend. Strange the way so many people that never run against each other pick it up all at once...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anselm Murphy wrote:
Are some people just naturally able to become really great runners and others can't - for example, if I decided to train all day like a professional, would I eventually get to around 4:00, or is it just that some people can and some people can't?


An interesting question. I've often wondered something similar and here is what I've been able to come up with on my own. No real scientific theory here simply a hypothesis of mine. I do beleive that there are people that can just pick up and run unbelievably fast. Their simply genetic Thourghbreds. And there are other people that when unconditioned aren't that fast but after enough conditioning can become very good. I hypothosise that there are four underlying factors that really affect how good a person can be. Two are actual physical attributes two are not.

The first one affects us all in every field, life. Sometimes it can get in the way, family responsibilites, a car reck and other things can happen to prevent you from acheiving your potential. The second is drive. No matter how talented you are you must be driven to endure discomfort, failure, stress, training and all that other stuff to become good. The next two are the physical tools.

The first is durability. If your body can't maintain health at a bare minimum of 60 miles a week with lots of hard intervals you won't be able to put in the training even a freakishly talent person would need to be really good. And finally as strange as it is going to sound coming from me you need speed (gasp!!!). I use to think that this could be manufactured and then this year I had a girl on my team who's 100 meter PR pace was actually slower than at least two of my womens 1500 pace! She will never be a good runner at the college level no matter how hard she tries. So if you want to become a world class athlete you need to have enough natural speed to reach world class pace for whatever race you wish to run. You don't have to be able to hold it very long when your in an untrained state but you have to at least be able to get to that pace.

So there you have it. Life, drive, durability and speed. If you have these things you at least have hope. No garuntee that you will be world class. But at least you don't already know that you can't, hypothetically. Cool
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