Run-Down Forums

[Dan]

I would guess you had a bit of an over-training thing going on, having gone straight from XC to Indoor with almost no break. Taking two weeks off now is what your body wanted at the end of the fall -- that's the typical break I always suggest after a season -- which would explain you feeling so much more rested.

Dan
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])

[ssteve235]

True, very true. And i definatly had a bit of overtraing going on, my mileage totals were a little crazy to say the least during most of the indoor season but im fixing that now. I wasnt even planning on taking two weeks but a combination of a huge blizzard and getting sick again forced me into it and im extremely glad i did.

[Angelo Z]

Your tempo pace is around 5:58. That means that you should do all of your continuous running between 6:14 and 6:44 mile pace. 6:44 mile pace would be when you run your long run or any run that takes up to an hour and 6:14 pace would be whenever you run for around 30 minutes. It is good that the sub 7:00 pace felt harder because that is what true easy running should feel like. The word "easy" throws many people off because they deliberately think that they should run with barely any effort. It's wrong, the purpose is to improve your endurance and to do that, you must feel yourself breathing deeply and often during your continuous runs, that is when you know that you're pushing that aerobic system to work harder. You are a sub 5:00 miler, you should not be running at 7:30 pace as you once did when you were running a 5:30-5:40 mile.

Your cool downs should be at around 7:30-7:40 pace as well as your recovery runs. Your warm ups should be at that 6:14-6:44 mile pace range but towards the 6:44 end because as we all know, we only do warm-ups before we run something challenging. A good warm-up is not running comfortably along the way, it is running to get your heart pumping well and strong. That is the proper way to transition from a warm up to a workout.

One more thing, do not be afraid of running in that range. You will not overtrain, all it does is put the true emphasis on building up your endurance. Too many high school runners run their easy pace, if not slightly faster by 10 seconds or so as they once did when their mile time was a lot slower. You need to learn to get all of your paces faster. Ever wonder why your workout paces improved dramatically and your easy pace for some reason, has barely changed? The truth is that your easy pace has changed, it is just that you have been holding yourself back the whole time from running at the real steady pace.

You will get used to it, don't worry. The only reason that feels hard is that this time you start your running directly at sub 7:00 pace. It no longer starts at 7:30 and then gets down to 6:50 at the end. If you feel your leg muscles aching, let them ache. It means that they aren't strong enough to run at that pace all the time because you are new to it. Just push through and they will grow stronger.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

Yeah I understand what your saying, my legs were pretty sore today but i ran at 7 pace again for 6 miles. And the rest of what you said about easy running shouldn't feel easy, i was in that group that thought easy running should feel easy but now im changing my mind and agreeing with you much more. My mindset has totally changed from large mileage at an easy pace to a much smaller mileage but with the majority of the miles at a quality pace. That high mileage work has not help improve my running, its all done is get me injured and overtrained and that in turn got me pretty sick which all in the end had me running terrible times during the time of the season when i should have been the strongest. Im not going to make that mistake this outdoor season. I know that i have the speed to run my goal of a 4:30 mile this year, i just need to do the training the right way to get there.

[Angelo Z]

I'm glad that you're gaining more experience now. With the easy runs however, make sure that you don't do the same run more than 2 days in a row. That's the only time when it will take a toll on you. Running 7 miles at 6:44 consecutively will get you tired, so you have to mix it around with the shorter easy runs (30 minutes @ 6:14) for example. I reccomend that you split your long run into two but start off with 4 miles @ 6:14 in the morning and then 4 miles @ 6:14 in the afternoon. Build that up to 6 and 6 as the time goes by but running a tiny bit slower than 6:14, 6:20 for example. For Sunday, you can run 9 miles @ 6:44 for example. That is about 60 minutes of running. That way the shorter easy runs of 6:14 mile pace will make the longer ones at 6:44 feel much easier and slower and then longer ones will improve your aerobic capacity.

Remember, the only part that sucks is starting out at that pace but it will soon become routine for you. Your legs may also ache throughout the run but that's ok.

One more thing, don't forget to deduct seconds. Every 1 or 2 weeks, take a second or 2 away so that you're running at 6:12-6:42 mile pace. If you keep that up through the summer, then that's around 5:50-6:20 mile pace by the end of August and even faster after August. 2 of your days should be intervals of 1000-2000m with 4-5 days being just easy runs (during summer). Endurance is your bread and butter for everything, it is the indicator for how great of a runner you are. Speed is easy to get and after all, it's not what we base distance running off of.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[Angelo Z]

You must run at 6:44ish pace for runs of up to 55-60 minutes. I know that you have ran tempos at about 6:00 pace before for 20 minutes. Your body should be able to handle 6:44 for runs up to 60 minutes. 30 minute runs should be 6:14, 45 minute runs should be at about 6:29, and 60 minute runs should be around 6:44. You can go 3 +/- seconds for each one, but never try to push the pace too much and end up running for 60 minutes at 6:20 for example. They should feel steady with a significant amount of challenge to them, but do not try to go crazy on them. This calculator says it and it is also accurate for my paces, so it's not just a calculator. I even put in Hicham's mile time and it matched the training paces he was doing. http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
Just put in your mile PR or 5K. If you feel really good, do not try to run for 60 minutes at 6:29 pace. If you feel better, that is when you double up on the shorter easy runs so you run at a much faster pace of 6:14.

Your run this Sunday should be exactly 60 minutes with a little bit of leniency on the 6:44 pace. It is hard to get the pace perfect to the nearest second, but a few seconds faster or slower will not ruin your run. That is 9 miles in 1:00:36 seconds, but just stop after 60 minutes. Don't focus on how many miles you run, it is over with. From now on, focus on the duration and pace and make each duration reasonable. All you have to do is set your runs to 30,45, and 60 minutes. Doubling up is just a way to improve even faster.

I am guessing that you can only double up on the weekend because of school. So run 30 minutes in the morning and after noon on Saturday at 6:14, and then 60 minutes on Sunday at 6:44. You will be surprised on Sunday because after running at 6:14, your legs will be cut some slack when they will face 6:44. Don't run sub 7:00 or 6:55ish, that is too slow. We are talking about a 16 second difference here, it is necessary that you run as close to 6:44 as you can. Just move your legs faster, you will not collapse. The only exception is when you are climbing a hill, that is when you will feel them burning but then you will be relieved once you get over the top of it. Also, do not make the mistake of "I must hit 6:44, I must run faster" and end up running the first mile in 6:10. People tend to make mistakes of overdoing it by accident when they are only required to put in a tiny bit more effort, it is just a psychological thing. Just check your first 800m split and you'll be fine along the way. Through experience, you'll get more and more accurate on the paces.

And then again so you don't forget, all warm-ups at 6:44, all cool downs and recovery runs (when you really need one after a very, very hard day) at 7:20 pace. Keep the warm ups and cool downs at 15 minutes each.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

I put in my mile pr (4:5, and the paces i have come up with are different then the ones your talking about right now, my easy runs should be at 6:54-7:24 and my tempos at 5:49 to 6:05, not exactly the 6:10-6:44 range your talking about.

Also to respond to the other post you wrote about summer training, i dont need to worry about summer training jsut yet, the outdoor season hasn't even started yet and im planning on doing plenty of speedwork, more so then distance work seeing as its track season. Im also planning on possibly running the 4x4, but that all depends on my speed and how my other teamamates are running. Most likely though, i wont be running the 4x4 but if i do, my school would have a pretty strong team, so i would be doing some extra speed work in order to get my 400 time down.

[Angelo Z]

Yes, I know how it gives you the easy pace at 6:54 but the pace you should be running at is anywhere between the fastest steady pace to 30 seconds slower. This means that you're running about 10 seconds faster than the easy pace it gives you. The only reason you're running from 6:44ish and on down is because of quality.

I originally put in 5:05 for you for the mile because of your endurance. The mile is also speed based so it's not the perfect thing to put in when determining tempos and such. Put in your 2 mile-5k time and you will get a better estimate. If you put in a 2:15 800m for example, then the paces would be way off.

Now unless you have actually ran a 20 min. tempo at 5:49, then there shouldn't be a problem. Remember, fastest steady pace to 30 seconds slower is where you should run.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

Quick question for you Dan...On the seventh day of my week, is it a better idea to take it off or cross train? Ive never crossed trained before but this season i really want to make sure i dont over do it, so is it a better idea to take the day off to rest my legs or to do some biking?

[Dan]

I consider that up to the individual. I've found through trial and error that my body needs a rest day once a week, otherwise I break down after 3-4 weeks and miss time with injury. The HS athletes I coached, I usually had them take one or two days off a month, and many of them ran on those days anyway, once they became accustomed to the feel of putting in mileage ever day.

Cross training on that 7th day is a nice compromise between the two options, especially if you feel like you could go either direction reasonably well. I'll sometimes go for a walk on my rest day -- basically a very low impact cross training -- just to keep the legs loose. I'm also doing strength/core stuff most days, so you could say I'm applying a cross training approach to some degree.

Dan
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])

[ssteve235]

I think that right now im going to take off 1 day a week, mainly becuase im afraid my body will break down again like it has during xc and during the indoor season. If my body is holding up well in a few weeks to month, i might add a day of cross training or perhaps another day of running, ill have to see how my body responds to the lower, higher quality, mileage.

[Eddd the Sailor]

I've actually found cross training to be very helpful to my running lately. I've pretty much always been lucky to be uninjured, but I think it's a good way to get more aerobic work in while reducing impact on the legs. I was going to write a whole long post on this, but long story short, I bike a few times a week after easy runs now and I feel a lot better while running now.
_________________
My Athlinks profile - some road races I've done and stuff

[ssteve235]

Yeah I definatly can see how biking can be helpful but as i said before, im afraid of overtraining...again. There was a period of a little more then a month and a half during the middle of XC in which i was just completly done. I could barely keep up with the rest of the team during workouts, and for a 5 race stretch i was the 3-5 guy instead of the number 2 and then the same thing happened during the end of indoor. I led the workouts for months and then crashed and burned for 3 weeks which mercifully ended with the worst mile ive ever ran at sections. So Im just afraid of doing too much again and messing up another track season in which i need to run some pretty good time to get noticed by some college programs.

[Angelo Z]

If you start to feel kind of tired, do all of your warm-ups at recovery pace or what you used to do. But yeah about cross training, you still have to do supplemental training. Push ups, pull ups, and so on. I use a nearby playground to do my pull ups and various ab exercises such as doing pull ups with legs straight out raised horizontally. You should only work your legs when you're at the beginning-mid season through hills and strength work. Typically towards the end of the season, the workouts get really tough and mileage gets really low. That's when you have to be careful and keep the volume low.

It's also not all about the volume, but also how you position your workouts. It's all common sense but for some people (not directly referring to you), common sense isn't so common.

On the days before your meets, take it very very easy. If you see people striding, going out too fast, all of that stuff, don't get tempted to do so as well. Every bit of effort adds up regardless of how easy things are or if it's just a "few" strides. Better yet, take the whole day off. And then again, you should have a pattern in your training. Hard, easy, hard easy. It's as simple as that. You dig your own hole faster while your body is trying to recover and you're still putting in an effort. If you had a hard day, make the next one easy and make sure you keep to that.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[Eddd the Sailor]

I think it's good to do a short easy run the day before a meet, to keep the legs loose (and a few strides, too, although you can do those 2 days before instead). Sometimes I feel sharper if I run them slightly faster than easy pace, too, like 7:00 or less. The other reason to run the day before is to get mileage in for future meets, because if you're running 12-14 meets in a HS season, they can't all be important, you want to peak at the last few.

It's all right if you feel tired early on in the season. My HS senior year of track, I was getting beaten by a bunch of kids, even though I did all the hard workouts our coach gave us over spring break and I knew some of them didn't. My coach told me on the run the next day that I was just tired, and it doesn't seem fair now but I would be fine by the end of the year. Two meets later, I PR'd by 16 seconds in the mile and I made the regionals team at the end of the year and ran 4:59.8 (my HS goal was 5 minutes).

I'm in much better shape now than in high school, but I mainly run longer distances (I'm currently training for a marathon), so I really don't know what I could do for a mile anymore. I still think 7-7:30 pace is fine for easy days and long runs and warmups (even slower if I'm tired from a workout, and maybe slightly faster to get a good workout out of a long run).
_________________
My Athlinks profile - some road races I've done and stuff